Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1233; Body=3 Fuz1=3 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=unavailable version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id s8K92T8O010537 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 11:02:29 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1XVGWC-00052u-AQ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:59:48 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1XVGWB-00052k-Sh for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:59:47 +0100 Received: from mail-ig0-f171.google.com ([209.85.213.171]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1XVGW9-0005sI-9d for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:59:46 +0100 Received: by mail-ig0-f171.google.com with SMTP id hn15so372830igb.16 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 01:59:43 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=y71+UCPMKo9831RvlftIt+hkN/DKmcn3fBLK10Y1pZg=; b=NDx/RvqRTf5pw9lO0ad90/k4HGuPk5SBTvnMHWD/eGaE0qa0JxvIr/kkjkeDsiamh0 i7uNBn5kx85PMFK3yIh/4O33ecBQzunxl0c8Q9ZhSRyEGTD+mfw1hElsKzE1qzZsBWHa vm8YAFTyhf7M8ynngg9u4lLTYtVKZrrtnRS0wd2hnVr82nuZMS03STviHgaB6SoVe+3X mS23PU1TBnc89nhhzdzZS128EzxAdq/EWDTm/EBV+j+/rraHvPKSHK05vLeQTGKBBcqx B0dLfiAKPJnV5bqsKyjr0KVIBx6/l5jaZXqTuExbJrAVztpFrmt8uC8sJorIqCtrknjK kkOw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.88.76 with SMTP id b12mr340335icm.61.1411203582900; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 01:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.137.102 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 01:59:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3E929CBB414342E58A4D58FCC0733312@White> References: <6830353EE87C4976A52C3E8B21B3E35B@White> <3E929CBB414342E58A4D58FCC0733312@White> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 10:59:42 +0200 Message-ID: From: Piotr Herko To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Scan-Signature: aaa907f1cfed2776dbc1341844857d57 Subject: Re: LF: DX with 472 kHz, earth electrode antenna, 25 Watts output :-) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba61400043c24505037b708d X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 464 --90e6ba61400043c24505037b708d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi, Tnx Marcus for methodology for EIRP level estimation. I try calculate! Mauro, Earthing connected to shack is from band around my home. Band in about 1,5 meters deep in ground. It is connected to all my equipment. This band is first for safety on home. Electrode is about 20 meters far from nearest point of 'normal' earthing point. Second electrode is simply 2 meters vertical rod pounded in soil. This electrode is directly connected to tx output with 2,2 nF capacitor in serial. For connection I use isolated wire. Capacitance was selected to get lowest SWR. I was using for it home made NWT-7, DK3WX project, simple network analyser. It is simple observe on analyser where is minimum SWR, then change capacitor to get low SWR. But it is no problem use SWR meter for it only. Output from tx is 50 ohm 5th order filter. Isolated wire lay simply on ground. I dont see any significiant changes between wire on ground and hanging on fence. SWR is 1.1 to 1.4 according to weather. I dont know exatly what soil is in my garden! I think it is sandy clay. Piotrek, sp5xsb On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Markus Vester wrote: > PS: Forgot to mention that you may also need to > consider directivity: The broadcast station used for the measurement should > preferably be close to one of the main lobes (ie NE or SW). If there is > significant deviation, you could either correct the measurement using the > cosine of the azimuth difference, or simply orient the reference loop the > same way as your ground antenna. > > 73, Markus > > *From:* Markus Vester > *Sent:* Saturday, September 20, 2014 9:25 AM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: DX with 472 kHz, earth electrode antenna, 25 Watts > output :-) > > Hi Piotr, > > congratulations on those results from your ground dipole! > > In my opinion, it is somewhat difficult to estimate ERP directly from WSPR > SNR figures, because the variations in skywave sttenuation and receiver > noise floor are difficult to predict. I would probably go about it by > using a receiver to measure the effective loop area Aeff of the ground > dipole. This can be done with some broadcast station in the lower medium > wave band, comparing receive level with that from a simple nonresonant loop > with eg. 1 square meter. Only the voltage ratio (dB difference) is required > so you don't need an absolutely calibrated receiver. Thus > > Aeff = voltage on ground antenna / voltage on reference loop * 1 m^2 > > If the frequency of the used broadcast station was significantly higher > than your transmit frequency, you can make a correction for the increased > skin depth: > > Aeff' = Aeff * sqrt (f_broadcast / f_amateur) > > Then, during your transmissions you'll only need to measure the current to > your ground antenna, and calculate ERP as > > ERP = 1.83 * 62342 ohms * Aeff'^2 / lambda^4 * current^2 > > Best 73, > Markus (DF6NM) > > > *From:* Piotr Herko > *Sent:* Saturday, September 20, 2014 8:32 AM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* LF: DX with 472 kHz, earth electrode antenna, 25 Watts output > :-) > > > > Hi, > > I reached OH8HTG WSPR, 1414, km with my earth electrode antenna! TX is > M1GEO project, DDS RN3AUS, electrodes are 20 meters apart. Antenna is > directly connected to 50 ohm tx filter with serial 2,2 nF capacitor. SWR is > about 1,1 to 1.4 according to weather. Direction of the antenna is NE, 50 > deg. > > So far my WSPR was received in DL, OK, OE corner by DH5RAE, DJ0ABR > and DC1RJJ, about 650 km far. Also closer by SP2OVY and SQ5KLN. > > > Who can help me estimate EIRP power? I declare now in WSPR beacon 5 mW. > > > > 2014-09-20 02:14 SP5XSB 0.475636 -30 0 KO02ld 0.005 > OH8HTG KP34 1414 12 2014-09-20 02:12 DK7FC 0.475684 -9 0 > JN49ik 1 SP5XSB KO02ld 911 66 2014-09-20 02:06 SP5XSB > 0.475636 -33 0 KO02ld 0.005 OH8HTG KP34 1414 12 > > Piotrek, sp5xsb > > > --90e6ba61400043c24505037b708d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,
Tnx Marcus for methodolo= gy for EIRP level estimation. I try calculate!
Mauro,
= =C2=A0Earthing =C2=A0connected to shack is from band around my home. Band i= n about 1,5 meters deep in ground. It is connected to all my equipment. Thi= s band is first for safety on home.=C2=A0
Electrode is about 20 m= eters far from nearest point of 'normal' earthing point. Second ele= ctrode is simply 2 meters vertical =C2=A0rod pounded in soil. This electrod= e is directly connected to tx output with 2,2 nF capacitor in serial. For c= onnection I use isolated wire. Capacitance was selected to get lowest SWR. = I was using for it home made NWT-7, DK3WX project, simple network analyser.= It is simple observe on analyser where is minimum SWR, then change capacit= or to get low SWR. But it is no problem =C2=A0use SWR meter for it only. Ou= tput from tx is 50 ohm 5th order filter. =C2=A0Isolated wire lay simply on = ground. I dont see any significiant changes between wire on ground and hang= ing on fence. SWR is 1.1 to 1.4 according to weather.
I dont =C2= =A0know exatly =C2=A0what soil is in my garden! =C2=A0I think it is sandy c= lay.

Piotrek, sp5xsb


=

On Sa= t, Sep 20, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Markus Vester <markusvester@aol.com>= ; wrote:
PS: Forgot to mention that you=C2=A0may also need= =20 to consider=C2=A0directivity:=C2=A0The broadcast station used for the=20 measurement should preferably be=C2=A0close to=C2=A0one of the main lobes (= ie NE=20 or SW). If there=C2=A0is significant deviation,=C2=A0you could either corre= ct=20 the measurement using the cosine of the=C2=A0azimuth difference, or simply= =20 orient the reference loop the same way as your ground antenna.
=C2=A0
73, Markus=C2=A0=C2=A0

Hi Piotr,
=C2=A0
congratulations on those=C2=A0results from your= =20 ground dipole!
=C2=A0
In my opinion, it is somewhat difficult to estima= te=20 ERP directly from WSPR SNR figures, because the variations in skywave=20 sttenuation and receiver noise floor are difficult to predict. I would probably go about it=C2=A0by using a receiver to=20 measure the effective loop area Aeff of the ground dipole. This can be=20 done=C2=A0with some broadcast station in the lower medium wave band, compar= ing=20 receive level with that=C2=A0from a simple nonresonant loop with eg. 1 squa= re=20 meter.=C2=A0Only the voltage ratio (dB difference) is required so you=20 don't=C2=A0need an absolutely calibrated receiver. Thus
=C2=A0
=C2=A0Aeff =3D voltage on ground antenna / voltag= e on=20 reference loop * 1 m^2
=C2=A0
If the frequency of the used broadcast station wa= s=20 significantly higher than your transmit frequency, you can make a correctio= n for=20 the increased skin depth:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0Aeff' =3D Aeff * sqrt (f_broadcast /=20 f_amateur)
=C2=A0
Then, during your transmissions you'll only n= eed to=20 measure the=C2=A0current to your ground antenna, and calculate ERP=20 as
=C2=A0
=C2=A0ERP =3D 1.83 * 62342 ohms * Aeff'^2 / l= ambda^4=20 * current^2
=C2=A0
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
=C2=A0

Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 8:32 AM
Subject: LF: DX with 472 kHz, earth electrode antenna, 25 Watts= =20 output :-)



Hi,

I reached OH8HTG WSPR, =C2=A01414, =C2=A0km with my earth electrode=20 antenna! TX is M1GEO project, DDS RN3AUS, electrodes are 20 meters apart.= =20 Antenna is directly connected to 50 ohm tx filter with serial 2,2 nF capaci= tor.=20 SWR is about 1,1 to 1.4 according to weather. Direction of the antenna is N= E, 50=20 deg.

So far my WSPR was received in DL, OK, OE corner by=20 DH5RAE,=C2=A0=C2=A0DJ0ABR and=C2=A0=C2=A0DC1RJJ, about 650 km far. Also clo= ser=20 by SP2OVY and SQ5KLN.


Who can help me estimate EIRP power? I declare now in WSPR beacon 5=20 mW.



2014-09-20 02:14=C2=A0 =C2=A0SP5XSB=C2=A0 =C2=A00.475636=C2=A0 =C2=A0-30=C2=A0 =C2=A00=C2=A0 =C2=A0KO02ld=C2=A0 =C2=A00.005=C2=A0 =C2=A0OH8HTG=C2=A0 =C2=A0KP34=C2=A0 =C2=A01414=C2=A0 =C2=A012=C2=A0
=C2=A02014-09-20 02:12=C2=A0 =C2=A0DK7FC=C2=A0 =C2=A00.475684=C2=A0 =C2=A0-9=C2=A0 =C2=A00=C2=A0 =C2=A0JN49ik=C2=A0 =C2=A01=C2=A0 =C2=A0SP5XSB=C2=A0 =C2=A0KO02ld=C2=A0 =C2=A0911=C2=A0 =C2=A066=C2=A0
=C2=A02014-09-20 02:06=C2=A0 =C2=A0SP5XSB=C2=A0 =C2=A00.475636=C2=A0 =C2=A0-33=C2=A0 =C2=A00=C2=A0 =C2=A0KO02ld=C2=A0 =C2=A00.005=C2=A0 =C2=A0OH8HTG=C2=A0 =C2=A0KP34=C2=A0 =C2=A01414=C2=A0 =C2=A012=C2=A0


Piotrek, sp5xsb



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