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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id v4si7756314laj.58.2014.03.01.10.46.23 for ; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:46:24 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1WJotS-0000y4-Ei for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:44:14 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1WJotR-0000xv-Pm for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:44:13 +0000 Received: from mail-qa0-f52.google.com ([209.85.216.52]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WJotP-0002vM-Ar for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:44:12 +0000 Received: by mail-qa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id m5so1990576qaj.39 for ; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:44:09 -0800 (PST) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=8rGIUvHuXmh2fGO20v9aB4ygdubbBXvbeFA/EbRz2jM=; b=OhJH3Z4unfR2SzGzd79wWb7xxV9/FzUYDlgvsoks1/eHX7tfl+e8OeStehr+3bD5Oj Zqu07NaFiFEMjF2KDG3JXC7SzLAWSipns8aN4NJeGxRQspFIfPIblGSULt2UooQE5U44 TtjbY0dO56wFoQZxBhdyx0Cn2hz9PKx/Ou736Nq2vZvYkT1XR8Bq4QDTeqZRTCzm01+r CoRT6Md+35cPfVz4f0qHQHK3B07K2ipn4FhWlXcOENil/HigM9q+JVx8zrA7S0esMToI tOp2ChvCpzUbZy7BLnk6+S/27YdTsssjY0XaZuyte0Gl/rQW87x92IbzmgKMtUWE9Qh4 Uwow== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.100.181 with SMTP id s50mr2344673qge.113.1393699449307; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:44:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.96.199.195 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 10:44:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.96.199.195 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 10:44:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <0BBAB019609B4DF69ED8DC4EE820D0AC@gnat> References: <0BBAB019609B4DF69ED8DC4EE820D0AC@gnat> Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 13:44:09 -0500 Message-ID: From: Warren Ziegler To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Thanks Alan for the info and link. Might the vlf reflector guys be interested in our experiments? I think I joined the list but have not been active there, perhaps you could pass on the info? 73& Tnx Warren [...] Content analysis details: (-0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [209.85.216.52 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (wd2xgj[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 84ab60ecdd4473835b39687102047368 Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134f2b899871204f38ff073 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNSAFE,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false --001a1134f2b899871204f38ff073 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thanks Alan for the info and link. Might the vlf reflector guys be interested in our experiments? I think I joined the list but have not been active there, perhaps you could pass on the info? 73& Tnx Warren 73 K2ORS On Mar 1, 2014 1:15 PM, "Alan Melia" wrote: > Hi Warren I think the 70kHz "boundary" is just the point at which the > Earth-Ionosphere waveguide supports so many different modes that the > modelling becomes difficult and the ray path is as effective. Even this > transition is fuzzy and is often quoted as low as 50kHz. > > It may be of interest that Paul Nicholson has put a web front end to the > LWPC propagation code > http://abelian.org/lwpc/ This gives reasonable results up to around > 45kHz. I have done some tests on it and it gives quite sensible answers. > > Alan > G3NYK > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Warren Ziegler > *To:* rsgb_lf_group > *Sent:* Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:54 PM > *Subject:* Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA > > Hi Alan, > > I agree, there was nothing that I could find that indicated that > there would be a problem at 30kHz. I even checked with a well known vlf > expert who has done design work for some of the BIG military vlf systems. > Somewhere around 70kHz there is a transitional area between waveguide modes > applicable at vlf and ray-tracing which is applicable at higher > frequencies. The increased number of modes above 70kHz I believe explains > the deep fading there as the modes constructively and destructively > interfere. > However, it didn't hurt to ask for the additional frequencies as Dex > was able to use an existing loading coil to get on 45kHz within hours of > the license being issued! > > > 73 Warren K2ORS > > > > On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Alan Melia wrote: > >> Hi Warren I cant see30kHz being particularly different for propgation >> in that part of the spectrum. I can see 2nd harmonic trashing WWVB clock >> synchronisation over a substantial area though, bearing in mind the >> receivers are very simple.........and most only try to sync around midnight. >> >> Alan >> G3NYK. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Warren Ziegler >> *To:* rsgb_lf_group >> *Sent:* Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:17 PM >> *Subject:* LF: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA >> >> Hello the list, >> >> Several questions have come up concerning the WH2XBA grant and I >> thought I might address them here. Bob W2ZM contacted me about applying >> for a grant at the top end of the vlf range (just below 30kHz). >> The thought was that the high end of vlf would be a bit less challenging >> than the low end below 9kHz (which is unregulated). >> >> Some of the usual suspects expressed interest so they were added to >> the application. Also Jim AA5BW - Jim and I have a mutual friend through >> work - Jim is highly capable and technical and has multiple sites >> throughout the country. There was some concern that the frequencies >> around 30kHz were unoccupied due to propagation reasons and some thought it >> might be good to go a bit higher, hence the 27-59kHz range, leaving >> clearance for WWVB at the top end. >> >> The license is for 5W ERP, 27-59kHz, CW and every data mode that I >> could think of. >> >> The application was filed on January 29 and the license issued on >> February 27 - this was despite some Federal Holidays and closings due to >> blizzards! So I suspect that it didn't raise too many questions. >> >> The stations are: >> WH2XBA/1 Bob W2ZM >> WH2XBA/2 Warren K2ORS >> WH2XBA/3 Jay W1VD >> WH2XBA/4 Dex W4DEX >> WH2XBA/5 Laurence KL1L >> WH2XBA/6 /7 /8 etc etc James Plesa AA5BW >> >> >> WH2XBA Grant Attached. >> >> 73 Warren K2ORS >> >> -- >> 73 Warren K2ORS >> WD2XGJ >> WD2XSH/23 >> WE2XEB/2 >> WE2XGR/1 >> WG2XRS/1 >> WH2XBA/2 >> >> >> >> > > > -- > 73 Warren K2ORS > WD2XGJ > WD2XSH/23 > WE2XEB/2 > WE2XGR/1 > > > > --001a1134f2b899871204f38ff073 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks Alan for the info and link.
Might the vlf reflector guys be interested in our experiments?
I think I joined the list but have not been active there, perhaps you could= pass on the info?
73& Tnx
Warren

73 K2ORS

On Mar 1, 2014 1:15 PM, "Alan Melia" &= lt;alan.melia@btinternet.com> wrote:
Hi Warren I think the 70kHz "boundary" = is just the=20 point at which the Earth-Ionosphere waveguide supports so many different mo= des=20 that the modelling becomes difficult and the ray path is as effective.=A0= =20 Even this transition is fuzzy and is often quoted as low as 50kHz. <= /div>
=A0
It may be of interest that Paul Nicholson has put= a=20 web front end to the LWPC propagation code
http://abelian.org/lwpc/=A0 This gives=20 reasonable results up to around 45kHz. I have done some tests on it and it = gives=20 quite sensible answers.
=A0
Alan
G3NYK
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Warren Ziegler=20
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:54= =20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF Licen= se=20 WH2XBA

Hi Alan,

=A0 =A0 =A0 I agree, there was nothing that I could find that=20 indicated that there would be a problem at 30kHz. I even checked with a w= ell=20 known vlf expert who has done design work for some of the BIG military vl= f=20 systems. Somewhere around 70kHz there is a transitional area between wave= guide=20 modes applicable at vlf and ray-tracing which is applicable at higher=20 frequencies. The increased number of modes above 70kHz I believe explains= the=20 deep fading there as the modes constructively and destructively=20 interfere.
=A0 =A0However, it didn't hurt to ask for the additional=20 frequencies as Dex was able to use an existing loading coil to get on 45k= Hz=20 within hours of the license being issued!


73 Warren K2ORS



On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Alan Melia <alan.melia@btinternet.com> wrote:
Hi Warren I cant see30kHz being particularly = different=20 for propgation in that part of the spectrum. I can see 2nd harmonic tra= shing=20 WWVB clock synchronisation over a substantial area though, bearing in m= ind=20 the receivers are very simple.........and most only try to sync around= =20 midnight.
=A0
Alan
G3NYK.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 = 3:17=20 PM
Subject: LF: U.S. VLF License= =20 WH2XBA

Hello the list,

=A0 =A0 Several questions have come up concerning the WH2XBA=20 grant and I thought I might address them here. =A0Bob W2ZM contacted = me=20 about applying for a grant at the top end of the vlf range (just belo= w=20 30kHz).
The thought was that the high end of vlf would be a bit less=20 challenging than the low end below 9kHz (which is unregulated).

=A0 =A0 Some of the usual suspects expressed interest so they=20 were added to the application. Also Jim AA5BW - Jim and I have a mutu= al=20 friend through work - Jim is highly capable and =A0technical and has= =20 multiple sites throughout the country. =A0 There was some concern tha= t=20 the frequencies around 30kHz were unoccupied due to propagation reaso= ns=20 and some thought it might be good to go a bit higher, hence the 27-59= kHz=20 range, leaving clearance for WWVB at the top end.=A0

=A0 =A0 =A0The license is for 5W ERP, 27-59kHz, CW and every=20 data mode that I could think of.

=A0 =A0 The application was filed on January 29 and the license= =20 issued on February 27 - this was despite some Federal Holidays and=20 closings due to blizzards! =A0So I suspect that it didn't raise t= oo=20 many questions.

=A0 =A0 =A0The stations are:
WH2XBA/1 =A0 =A0 Bob= =20 W2ZM
WH2XBA/2 =A0 Warren= =20 K2ORS
WH2XBA/3 =A0 =A0 Jay= =20 W1VD
WH2XBA/4 =A0 =A0 Dex= =20 =A0W4DEX
WH2XBA/5 =A0 Laurenc= e=20 KL1L=A0
WH2XBA/6 /7 /8 etc etc James Plesa AA5BW
=A0

WH2XBA Grant Attached.

73 Warren K2ORS

--
73 Warren K2ORS
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WD2XGJ
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 =A0 =A0 =A0 WD2XSH/23
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 =A0 =A0 =A0 WE2XEB/2
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 =A0 =A0 WE2XGR/1=20
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 WG2XRS/1
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 WH2XBA/2

=A0=20



--
73 Warren K2ORS
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 =A0 =A0 =A0 WD2XGJ
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 =A0 =A0 WD2XSH/23
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 =A0 WE2XEB/2
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 WE2XGR/1

=A0
--001a1134f2b899871204f38ff073--