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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Alan; Will the "skip" be at night like all higher freqs? And the later [early morning] might be best? Bob From: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 19:13:49 +0000 Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA Hi Bob Almost certainly there will be "skywave" At 30 miles the ground and skywaves may be out of phase and near the same strength. We can detect two hop in the UK at 70miles range on 19.6kHz Anthorn. Not only that your short antenna will throw quite a bit skywards.....it cant get through the ionosphere so it gotta come back :-)) [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [65.55.116.35 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (rjraide[at]hotmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 57c46fc57df9e768804caa43485df2f4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_dab08009-2583-4325-aae0-7d5b6bbf1048_" Subject: RE: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD,HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNSAFE,HTML_MESSAGE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false --_dab08009-2583-4325-aae0-7d5b6bbf1048_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan=3B Will the "skip" be at night like all higher freqs? And the later [early mo= rning] might be best? Bob =20 From: alan.melia@btinternet.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Sat=2C 1 Mar 2014 19:13:49 +0000 Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Hi Bob =0A= Almost certainly there will be "skywave" At 30 =0A= miles the ground and skywaves may be out of phase and near the same strengt= h. We =0A= can detect two hop in the UK at 70miles range on 19.6kHz Anthorn. Not only = that =0A= your short antenna will throw quite a bit skywards.....it cant get through = the =0A= ionosphere so it gotta come back :-))=0A= =0A= Alan=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= ----- Original Message ----- =0A= From: =0A= Bob Raide =0A= =0A= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A= =0A= Sent: Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 6:22 =0A= PM=0A= Subject: RE: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License =0A= WH2XBA=0A= =20 =0A= Alan=3B Do you think there will be nights of skywave propagation =0A= as low as 30 kHz? Without it I don't see my .1 w ERP going anywhere =0A= close. BTW=3B I have a BC engineer friend about 30 miles from =0A= here. He could barely hear my fundamental signal and said 60 kHz is =0A= S9 at his QTH. I measured my second harmonic-appears about -60 db =0A= down- at 58.998. =20 I will have a 60 kHz clock tomorrow to seen if =0A= any cal trouble right here at transmitter location-Bob =20 =0A= =0A= =0A= From: alan.melia@btinternet.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: =0A= Sat=2C 1 Mar 2014 18:12:48 +0000 Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License =0A= WH2XBA =0A= =0A= =0A= Hi Warren I think the 70kHz "boundary" is just =0A= the point at which the Earth-Ionosphere waveguide supports so many differ= ent =0A= modes that the modelling becomes difficult and the ray path is as =0A= effective. Even this transition is fuzzy and is often quoted as low as = =0A= 50kHz. =0A= =0A= It may be of interest that Paul Nicholson has put =0A= a web front end to the LWPC propagation code=0A= http://abelian.org/lwpc/ This gives reasonable results =0A= up to around 45kHz. I have done some tests on it and it gives quite sensi= ble =0A= answers.=0A= =0A= Alan =0A= G3NYK=0A= =0A= ----- =0A= Original Message ----- =0A= From: =0A= Warren Ziegler =0A= =0A= To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group =0A= Sent: =0A= Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 3:54 PM=0A= Subject: =0A= Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA=0A= =20 =0A= Hi Alan=2C =0A= =20 =0A= I agree=2C there was nothing that I could find that =0A= indicated that there would be a problem at 30kHz. I even checked with a= well =0A= known vlf expert who has done design work for some of the BIG military = vlf =0A= systems. Somewhere around 70kHz there is a transitional area between = =0A= waveguide modes applicable at vlf and ray-tracing which is applicable a= t =0A= higher frequencies. The increased number of modes above 70kHz I believe= =0A= explains the deep fading there as the modes constructively and destruct= ively =0A= interfere.=0A= However=2C it didn't hurt to ask for the additional =0A= frequencies as Dex was able to use an existing loading coil to get on 4= 5kHz =0A= within hours of the license being issued!=0A= =20 =0A= =20 =0A= 73 Warren K2ORS=0A= =20 =0A= =20 =0A= On Sat=2C Mar 1=2C 2014 at 10:40 AM=2C Alan Melia wrote: =0A= =0A= =0A= Hi Warren I cant see30kHz being particularly =0A= different for propgation in that part of the spectrum. I can see 2nd = =0A= harmonic trashing WWVB clock synchronisation over a substantial area = =0A= though=2C bearing in mind the receivers are very simple.........and m= ost =0A= only try to sync around midnight.=0A= =0A= Alan=0A= G3NYK.=0A= =0A= ----- =0A= Original Message ----- =0A= From: =0A= Warren Ziegler =0A= To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group =0A= Sent: =0A= Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 3:17 PM=0A= Subject: =0A= LF: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA=0A= =20 =0A= =0A= =0A= Hello the list=2C=0A= =20 =0A= Several questions have come up concerning the WH2XBA =0A= grant and I thought I might address them here. Bob W2ZM contacted = =0A= me about applying for a grant at the top end of the vlf range (just= =0A= below 30kHz).=0A= The thought was that the high end of vlf would be a bit less =0A= challenging than the low end below 9kHz (which is unregulated).=0A= =20 =0A= Some of the usual suspects expressed interest so they =0A= were added to the application. Also Jim AA5BW - Jim and I have a mu= tual =0A= friend through work - Jim is highly capable and technical and has = =0A= multiple sites throughout the country. There was some concern =0A= that the frequencies around 30kHz were unoccupied due to propagatio= n =0A= reasons and some thought it might be good to go a bit higher=2C hen= ce the =0A= 27-59kHz range=2C leaving clearance for WWVB at the top end. =0A= =20 =0A= The license is for 5W ERP=2C 27-59kHz=2C CW and =0A= every data mode that I could think of.=0A= =20 =0A= The application was filed on January 29 and the =0A= license issued on February 27 - this was despite some Federal Holid= ays =0A= and closings due to blizzards! So I suspect that it didn't raise = =0A= too many questions.=0A= =20 =0A= The stations are:=0A= WH2XBA/1 =0A= Bob W2ZM=0A= WH2XBA/2 Warren =0A= K2ORS=0A= WH2XBA/3 =0A= Jay W1VD=0A= WH2XBA/4 =0A= Dex W4DEX=0A= WH2XBA/5 Laurence =0A= KL1L =0A= WH2XBA/6 /7 /8 etc etc James Plesa AA5BW=0A= =0A= =20 =0A= WH2XBA Grant Attached.=0A= =20 =0A= 73 Warren K2ORS=0A= =20 --=20 73 Warren K2ORS =0A= WD2XGJ=20 =0A= WD2XSH/23 =0A= WE2XEB/2 =0A= WE2XGR/1 =0A= =0A= WG2XRS/1=0A= =0A= WH2XBA/2 =0A= =20 =0A= =20 --=20 73 Warren K2ORS =0A= WD2XGJ=20 =0A= WD2XSH/23 =0A= WE2XEB/2 =0A= WE2XGR/1 =0A= = --_dab08009-2583-4325-aae0-7d5b6bbf1048_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alan=3B
Will the "skip" be at= night like all higher freqs? =3B And the later =3B[early morning] = might be best? =3B =3B Bob
 =3B
From: alan.melia@btinternet.com
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
= Date: Sat=2C 1 Mar 2014 19:13:49 +0000
Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF Lic= ense WH2XBA

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
Hi Bob
=0A=
Almost certainly there will be "skywav= e" At 30 =0A= miles the ground and skywaves may be out of phase and near the same strengt= h. We =0A= can detect two hop in the UK at 70miles range on 19.6kHz Anthorn. Not only = that =0A= your short antenna will throw quite a bit skywards.....it cant get through = the =0A= ionosphere so it gotta come back :-))
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Alan
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
=0A=
----- Original Message -----
=0A=
From: =0A= Bob = Raide =0A=
=0A= =0A=
Sent: Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 6:22 =0A= PM
=0A=
Subject: RE: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License =0A= WH2XBA
=0A=

=0A=
Alan=3B
Do you think there will be nights of skywave = propagation =0A= as low as 30 kHz? =3B Without it I don't see my .1 w ERP going anywhe= re =0A= close.
BTW=3B
I have a BC engineer friend about 30 miles from =0A= here. =3B =3BHe could barely hear my fundamental signal and said = 60 kHz is =0A= S9 at his QTH.
I measured my second harmonic-appears about =3B-60 = db =0A= down- at 58.998. =3B =3B
I will have a 60 kHz clock tomorrow t= o seen if =0A= any cal trouble right here at transmitter location-Bob
 =3B
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= From: alan.melia@btinternet.com
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Da= te: =0A= Sat=2C 1 Mar 2014 18:12:48 +0000
Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License= =0A= WH2XBA

=0A= =0A= =0A=
Hi Warren I think the 70kHz "boundar= y" is just =0A= the point at which the Earth-Ionosphere waveguide supports so many differ= ent =0A= modes that the modelling becomes difficult and the ray path is as =0A= effective. =3B Even this transition is fuzzy and is often quoted as l= ow as =0A= 50kHz.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
It may be of interest that Paul Nich= olson has put =0A= a web front end to the LWPC propagation code
=0A=
http://abelian.org/lwpc/ =3B This gives reasonab= le results =0A= up to around 45kHz. I have done some tests on it and it gives quite sensi= ble =0A= answers.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Alan
=0A=
G3NYK
=0A=
=0A=
----- =0A= Original Message -----
=0A=
From: =0A= Warren Z= iegler =0A=
=0A=
To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group
=0A=
Sent: =0A= Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 3:54 PM
=0A=
Subject: =0A= Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA
=0A=

=0A=
Hi Alan=2C =0A=

=0A=
 =3B  =3B  =3B I agree=2C there was nothing that I cou= ld find that =0A= indicated that there would be a problem at 30kHz. I even checked with a= well =0A= known vlf expert who has done design work for some of the BIG military = vlf =0A= systems. Somewhere around 70kHz there is a transitional area between = =0A= waveguide modes applicable at vlf and ray-tracing which is applicable a= t =0A= higher frequencies. The increased number of modes above 70kHz I believe= =0A= explains the deep fading there as the modes constructively and destruct= ively =0A= interfere.
=0A=
 =3B  =3BHowever=2C it didn't hurt to ask for the addition= al =0A= frequencies as Dex was able to use an existing loading coil to get on 4= 5kHz =0A= within hours of the license being issued!
=0A=

=0A=

=0A=
73 Warren K2ORS
=0A=

=0A=


=0A=
On Sat=2C Mar 1=2C 2014 at 10:40 AM=2C Al= an Melia <=3Balan.melia@btinternet.com>=3B wrote:
= =0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Hi Warren I cant see30kHz being particularl= y =0A= different for propgation in that part of the spectrum. I can see 2nd = =0A= harmonic trashing WWVB clock synchronisation over a substantial area = =0A= though=2C bearing in mind the receivers are very simple.........and m= ost =0A= only try to sync around midnight.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Alan
=0A=
G3NYK.
=0A=
=0A=
----- =0A= Original Message -----
=0A=
From:= =0A= Warren Ziegler
=0A=
To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group
=0A=
Sent: =0A= Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 3:17 PM
=0A=
Subject: =0A= LF: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA
=0A=

=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Hello the list=2C
=0A=

=0A=
 =3B  =3B Several questions have come up concerning th= e WH2XBA =0A= grant and I thought I might address them here.  =3BBob W2ZM con= tacted =0A= me about applying for a grant at the top end of the vlf range (just= =0A= below 30kHz).
=0A=
The thought was that the high end of vlf would be a bit less = =0A= challenging than the low end below 9kHz (which is unregulated).=0A=

=0A=
 =3B  =3B Some of the usual suspects expressed interes= t so they =0A= were added to the application. Also Jim AA5BW - Jim and I have a mu= tual =0A= friend through work - Jim is highly capable and  =3Btechnical a= nd has =0A= multiple sites throughout the country.  =3B There was some conc= ern =0A= that the frequencies around 30kHz were unoccupied due to propagatio= n =0A= reasons and some thought it might be good to go a bit higher=2C hen= ce the =0A= 27-59kHz range=2C leaving clearance for WWVB at the top end. = =3B
=0A=

=0A=
 =3B  =3B  =3BThe license is for 5W ERP=2C 27-59kH= z=2C CW and =0A= every data mode that I could think of.
=0A=

=0A=
 =3B  =3B The application was filed on January 29 and = the =0A= license issued on February 27 - this was despite some Federal Holid= ays =0A= and closings due to blizzards!  =3BSo I suspect that it didn't = raise =0A= too many questions.
=0A=

=0A=
 =3B  =3B  =3BThe stations are:
=0A=
WH2XBA/1  =3B  =3B =0A= Bob W2ZM
=0A=
WH2XBA/2  =3B Warren =0A= K2ORS
=0A=
WH2XBA/3  =3B  =3B =0A= Jay W1VD
=0A=
WH2XBA/4  =3B  =3B =0A= Dex  =3BW4DEX
=0A=
WH2XBA/5  =3B Laurence =0A= KL1L =3B
=0A=
WH2XBA/6 /7 /8 etc etc James Plesa AA5BW
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=

=0A=
WH2XBA Grant Attached.
=0A=

=0A=
73 Warren K2ORS
=0A=

--
73 Warren K2ORS
 =3B  =3B  =3B=  =3B =0A=  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B WD2XGJ
 =3B  =3B &n= bsp=3B  =3B =0A=  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B WD2XSH/23
 =3B  =3B =  =3B  =3B =0A=  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B WE2XEB/2
 =3B  =3B &= nbsp=3B  =3B =0A=  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B WE2XGR/1 =0A=
 =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B=  =3B =0A= WG2XRS/1
=0A=
 =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B=  =3B =0A= WH2XBA/2

 =3B =0A=

=0A=

--
73 Warren K2ORS
 =3B  =3B  =3B &nb= sp=3B  =3B =0A=  =3B  =3B  =3B WD2XGJ
 =3B  =3B  =3B  = =3B  =3B  =3B =0A=  =3B  =3B WD2XSH/23
 =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B &nbs= p=3B  =3B  =3B =0A=  =3B WE2XEB/2
 =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  = =3B  =3B  =3B =0A= WE2XGR/1

 =3B =0A=
= --_dab08009-2583-4325-aae0-7d5b6bbf1048_--