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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Alan; I am noticing exactly that-groundwave not that good at 29 kHz. Much better at 137 or even 74. Just got report from Kansas where I always put good daytime sigs in on 137-74. Got lot to learn about this VLF stuff-Bob [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [65.55.116.46 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (rjraide[at]hotmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 4d9fc52ca5607401f230b1df8d5fa4f4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_c6b0a051-9ff8-42f3-8b4d-27f236045e5f_" Subject: RE: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD,HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNSAFE,HTML_MESSAGE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false --_c6b0a051-9ff8-42f3-8b4d-27f236045e5f_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan=3B I am noticing exactly that-groundwave not that good at 29 kHz. Much better= at 137 or even 74. Just got report from Kansas where I always put good da= ytime sigs in on 137-74. Got lot to learn about this VLF stuff-Bob =20 From: alan.melia@btinternet.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Sat=2C 1 Mar 2014 21:15:41 +0000 Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Hi Bob if you mean "skywave" or ionospheric =0A= returns? that occurs day and night at LF and VLF the skywave is weaker in = =0A= daytime at LF due to a portion of absorbing D-lyer below the apparent refle= ction =0A= height=2C also at VLF but less so. At the powers we use the ground wave pro= bably =0A= does not go very far. I think the two are about the same strength at around= =0A= 400miles then the skywave predominates. It may be less with amateir antenna= s =0A= because a lot more of the signal is lanuched at higher angles that would be= the =0A= case for big antenna on Mil sites. =0A= =0A= I think there is some confusion about VLF being =0A= "all groundwave". Many of these ideas were formed in the days before Heavis= ide =0A= and Appleton. Ionospheric return is fom the D-layer in daytime (with some = =0A= absorption) and by the lower E-layer at night.=0A= =0A= Paul Nicholson has front-ended some Mil propagtion =0A= software for VLF called LWPC you can tell its the "real stuff it was =0A= written in Fortran :-)) =0A= Single shot strengths are calculated for the date =0A= and time entered so you can see diurnal effects. I have not tried it at ver= y =0A= short range but it certainly models he day-night transition quite =0A= well=0A= It is at http://abelian.org/lwpc/=0A= =0A= Best Wishes for Good VLF DX=0A= Alan=0A= G3NYK=0A= =0A= =0A= ----- Original Message ----- =0A= From: =0A= Bob Raide =0A= =0A= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A= =0A= Sent: Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 8:14 =0A= PM=0A= Subject: RE: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License =0A= WH2XBA=0A= =20 =0A= Alan=3B Will the "skip" be at night like all higher freqs? =0A= And the later [early morning] might be best? =0A= Bob =20 =0A= =0A= =0A= From: alan.melia@btinternet.com To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: =0A= Sat=2C 1 Mar 2014 19:13:49 +0000 Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License =0A= WH2XBA =0A= =0A= =0A= Hi Bob =0A= Almost certainly there will be "skywave" At 30 =0A= miles the ground and skywaves may be out of phase and near the same stren= gth. =0A= We can detect two hop in the UK at 70miles range on 19.6kHz Anthorn. Not = only =0A= that your short antenna will throw quite a bit skywards.....it cant get = =0A= through the ionosphere so it gotta come back :-))=0A= =0A= Alan=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= ----- =0A= Original Message ----- =0A= From: =0A= Bob Raide =0A= =0A= To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A= =0A= Sent: =0A= Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 6:22 PM=0A= Subject: =0A= RE: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA=0A= =20 =0A= Alan=3B Do you think there will be nights of skywave =0A= propagation as low as 30 kHz? Without it I don't see my .1 w ERP going= =0A= anywhere close. BTW=3B I have a BC engineer friend about 30 miles from =0A= here. He could barely hear my fundamental signal and said 60 kHz =0A= is S9 at his QTH. I measured my second harmonic-appears about -60 db =0A= down- at 58.998. =20 I will have a 60 kHz clock tomorrow to seen =0A= if any cal trouble right here at transmitter location-Bob =20 =0A= =0A= =0A= From: alan.melia@btinternet.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: =0A= Sat=2C 1 Mar 2014 18:12:48 +0000 Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License =0A= WH2XBA =0A= =0A= =0A= Hi Warren I think the 70kHz "boundary" is just =0A= the point at which the Earth-Ionosphere waveguide supports so many diff= erent =0A= modes that the modelling becomes difficult and the ray path is as =0A= effective. Even this transition is fuzzy and is often quoted as low as= =0A= 50kHz. =0A= =0A= It may be of interest that Paul Nicholson has =0A= put a web front end to the LWPC propagation code=0A= http://abelian.org/lwpc/ This gives reasonable =0A= results up to around 45kHz. I have done some tests on it and it gives q= uite =0A= sensible answers.=0A= =0A= Alan =0A= G3NYK=0A= =0A= ----- =0A= Original Message ----- =0A= From: =0A= Warren =0A= Ziegler =0A= To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group =0A= Sent: =0A= Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 3:54 PM=0A= Subject: =0A= Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA=0A= =20 =0A= Hi Alan=2C =0A= =20 =0A= I agree=2C there was nothing that I could find =0A= that indicated that there would be a problem at 30kHz. I even checked= with =0A= a well known vlf expert who has done design work for some of the BIG = =0A= military vlf systems. Somewhere around 70kHz there is a transitional = area =0A= between waveguide modes applicable at vlf and ray-tracing which is = =0A= applicable at higher frequencies. The increased number of modes above= =0A= 70kHz I believe explains the deep fading there as the modes construct= ively =0A= and destructively interfere.=0A= However=2C it didn't hurt to ask for the additional =0A= frequencies as Dex was able to use an existing loading coil to get on= =0A= 45kHz within hours of the license being issued!=0A= =20 =0A= =20 =0A= 73 Warren K2ORS=0A= =20 =0A= =20 =0A= On Sat=2C Mar 1=2C 2014 at 10:40 AM=2C Alan Melia =0A= wrote: =0A= =0A= =0A= Hi Warren I cant see30kHz being particularly =0A= different for propgation in that part of the spectrum. I can see 2n= d =0A= harmonic trashing WWVB clock synchronisation over a substantial are= a =0A= though=2C bearing in mind the receivers are very simple.........and= most =0A= only try to sync around midnight.=0A= =0A= Alan=0A= G3NYK.=0A= =0A= ----- =0A= Original Message ----- =0A= From: =0A= Warren Ziegler =0A= To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group =0A= Sent: =0A= Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 3:17 PM=0A= Subject: =0A= LF: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA=0A= =20 =0A= =0A= =0A= Hello the list=2C=0A= =20 =0A= Several questions have come up concerning the =0A= WH2XBA grant and I thought I might address them here. Bob W2ZM = =0A= contacted me about applying for a grant at the top end of the vlf= =0A= range (just below 30kHz).=0A= The thought was that the high end of vlf would be a bit less =0A= challenging than the low end below 9kHz (which is unregulated).= =0A= =20 =0A= Some of the usual suspects expressed interest so =0A= they were added to the application. Also Jim AA5BW - Jim and I ha= ve a =0A= mutual friend through work - Jim is highly capable and technical= =0A= and has multiple sites throughout the country. There was some = =0A= concern that the frequencies around 30kHz were unoccupied due to = =0A= propagation reasons and some thought it might be good to go a bit= =0A= higher=2C hence the 27-59kHz range=2C leaving clearance for WWVB = at the =0A= top end. =0A= =20 =0A= The license is for 5W ERP=2C 27-59kHz=2C CW and =0A= every data mode that I could think of.=0A= =20 =0A= The application was filed on January 29 and the =0A= license issued on February 27 - this was despite some Federal Hol= idays =0A= and closings due to blizzards! So I suspect that it didn't raise= =0A= too many questions.=0A= =20 =0A= The stations are:=0A= WH2XBA/1 =0A= Bob W2ZM=0A= WH2XBA/2 Warren =0A= K2ORS=0A= WH2XBA/3 =0A= Jay W1VD=0A= WH2XBA/4 =0A= Dex W4DEX=0A= WH2XBA/5 Laurence KL1L =0A= WH2XBA/6 /7 /8 etc etc James Plesa AA5BW=0A= =0A= =20 =0A= WH2XBA Grant Attached.=0A= =20 =0A= 73 Warren K2ORS=0A= =20 --=20 73 Warren K2ORS =0A= WD2XGJ=20 =0A= WD2XSH/23 =0A= WE2XEB/2 =0A= WE2XGR/1 =0A= =0A= WG2XRS/1=0A= =0A= WH2XBA/2 =0A= =20 =0A= =20 --=20 73 Warren K2ORS =0A= WD2XGJ=20 =0A= WD2XSH/23 =0A= WE2XEB/2 =0A= WE2XGR/1 =0A= = --_c6b0a051-9ff8-42f3-8b4d-27f236045e5f_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alan=3B
I am noticing exactly= that-groundwave not that good at =3B29 kHz. =3B =3BMuch better= at 137 or even 74. =3B Just got report from Kansas where I always put = good daytime sigs in on 137-74. =3B Got lot to learn about this VLF stu= ff-Bob
 =3B
From: alan.melia@btinter= net.com
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Sat=2C 1 Mar 2014 21:1= 5:41 +0000
Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
Hi Bob if you mean "skywave" or ionosp= heric =0A= returns? that occurs day and night at LF and VLF the skywave is weaker in = =0A= daytime at LF due to a portion of absorbing D-lyer below the apparent refle= ction =0A= height=2C also at VLF but less so. At the powers we use the ground wave pro= bably =0A= does not go very far. I think the two are about the same strength at around= =0A= 400miles then the skywave predominates. It may be less with amateir antenna= s =0A= because a lot more of the signal is lanuched at higher angles that would be= the =0A= case for big antenna on Mil sites.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
I think there is some confusion about = VLF being =0A= "all groundwave". Many of these ideas were formed in the days before Heavis= ide =0A= and Appleton. Ionospheric return is fom the D-layer in daytime (with some = =0A= absorption) and by the lower E-layer at night.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Paul Nicholson has front-ended some Mi= l propagtion =0A= software for VLF called LWPC =3B you can tell its the "real stuff it wa= s =0A= written in Fortran :-))
=0A=
Single shot strengths are calculated f= or the date =0A= and time entered so you can see diurnal effects. I have not tried it at ver= y =0A= short range but it certainly models he day-night transition quite =0A= well
=0A= =0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Best Wishes for Good VLF DX=0A=
Alan
=0A=
G3NYK
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
=0A=
----- Original Message -----
=0A=
From: =0A= Bob = Raide =0A=
=0A= =0A=
Sent: Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 8:14 =0A= PM
=0A=
Subject: RE: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License =0A= WH2XBA
=0A=

=0A=
Alan=3B
Will the "skip" be at night like all higher f= reqs? =3B =0A= And the later =3B[early morning] might be best? =3B =3B =0A= Bob
 =3B
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= From: alan.melia@btinternet.= com
To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org
Date: =0A= Sat=2C 1 Mar 2014 19:13:49 +0000
Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License= =0A= WH2XBA

=0A= =0A= =0A=
Hi Bob
=0A=
Almost certainly there will be "skyw= ave" At 30 =0A= miles the ground and skywaves may be out of phase and near the same stren= gth. =0A= We can detect two hop in the UK at 70miles range on 19.6kHz Anthorn. Not = only =0A= that your short antenna will throw quite a bit skywards.....it cant get = =0A= through the ionosphere so it gotta come back :-))
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Alan
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
=0A=
----- =0A= Original Message -----
=0A=
From: =0A= Bo= b Raide =0A=
=0A= =0A=
Sent: =0A= Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 6:22 PM
=0A=
Subject: =0A= RE: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA
=0A=

=0A=
Alan=3B
Do you think there will be nights of skywav= e =0A= propagation as low as 30 kHz? =3B Without it I don't see my .1 w ER= P going =0A= anywhere close.
BTW=3B
I have a BC engineer friend about 30 miles= from =0A= here. =3B =3BHe could barely hear my fundamental signal and sai= d 60 kHz =0A= is S9 at his QTH.
I measured my second harmonic-appears about = =3B-60 db =0A= down- at 58.998. =3B =3B
I will have a 60 kHz clock tomorrow= to seen =0A= if any cal trouble right here at transmitter location-Bob
 =3B=0A=
=0A=
=0A= From: alan.melia@btinternet.com
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
= Date: =0A= Sat=2C 1 Mar 2014 18:12:48 +0000
Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF Licen= se =0A= WH2XBA

=0A= =0A= =0A=
Hi Warren I think the 70kHz "bound= ary" is just =0A= the point at which the Earth-Ionosphere waveguide supports so many diff= erent =0A= modes that the modelling becomes difficult and the ray path is as =0A= effective. =3B Even this transition is fuzzy and is often quoted as= low as =0A= 50kHz.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
It may be of interest that Paul Ni= cholson has =0A= put a web front end to the LWPC propagation code
=0A=
http://abelian.org/lwpc/ =3B This gives reason= able =0A= results up to around 45kHz. I have done some tests on it and it gives q= uite =0A= sensible answers.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Alan
=0A=
G3NYK
=0A=
=0A=
----- =0A= Original Message -----
=0A=
From: = =0A= Warren= =0A= Ziegler
=0A=
To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group
=0A=
Sent: =0A= Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 3:54 PM
=0A=
Subject: =0A= Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA
=0A=

=0A=
Hi Alan=2C =0A=

=0A=
 =3B  =3B  =3B I agree=2C there was nothing that I c= ould find =0A= that indicated that there would be a problem at 30kHz. I even checked= with =0A= a well known vlf expert who has done design work for some of the BIG = =0A= military vlf systems. Somewhere around 70kHz there is a transitional = area =0A= between waveguide modes applicable at vlf and ray-tracing which is = =0A= applicable at higher frequencies. The increased number of modes above= =0A= 70kHz I believe explains the deep fading there as the modes construct= ively =0A= and destructively interfere.
=0A=
 =3B  =3BHowever=2C it didn't hurt to ask for the additi= onal =0A= frequencies as Dex was able to use an existing loading coil to get on= =0A= 45kHz within hours of the license being issued!
=0A=

=0A=

=0A=
73 Warren K2ORS
=0A=

=0A=


=0A=
On Sat=2C Mar 1=2C 2014 at 10:40 AM=2C = Alan Melia =0A= <=3Balan.melia@btinternet.com>=3B wrote:
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Hi Warren I cant see30kHz being particula= rly =0A= different for propgation in that part of the spectrum. I can see 2n= d =0A= harmonic trashing WWVB clock synchronisation over a substantial are= a =0A= though=2C bearing in mind the receivers are very simple.........and= most =0A= only try to sync around midnight.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Alan
=0A=
G3NYK.
=0A=
=0A=
----- =0A= Original Message -----
=0A=
From: =0A= Warren Ziegler
=0A=
To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group
=0A=
Sent: =0A= Saturday=2C March 01=2C 2014 3:17 PM
=0A=
Subject: =0A= LF: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA
=0A=

=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Hello the list=2C
=0A=

=0A=
 =3B  =3B Several questions have come up concerning = the =0A= WH2XBA grant and I thought I might address them here.  =3BBob= W2ZM =0A= contacted me about applying for a grant at the top end of the vlf= =0A= range (just below 30kHz).
=0A=
The thought was that the high end of vlf would be a bit less= =0A= challenging than the low end below 9kHz (which is unregulated).=0A=

=0A=
 =3B  =3B Some of the usual suspects expressed inter= est so =0A= they were added to the application. Also Jim AA5BW - Jim and I ha= ve a =0A= mutual friend through work - Jim is highly capable and  =3Bte= chnical =0A= and has multiple sites throughout the country.  =3B There was= some =0A= concern that the frequencies around 30kHz were unoccupied due to = =0A= propagation reasons and some thought it might be good to go a bit= =0A= higher=2C hence the 27-59kHz range=2C leaving clearance for WWVB = at the =0A= top end. =3B
=0A=

=0A=
 =3B  =3B  =3BThe license is for 5W ERP=2C 27-59= kHz=2C CW and =0A= every data mode that I could think of.
=0A=

=0A=
 =3B  =3B The application was filed on January 29 an= d the =0A= license issued on February 27 - this was despite some Federal Hol= idays =0A= and closings due to blizzards!  =3BSo I suspect that it didn'= t raise =0A= too many questions.
=0A=

=0A=
 =3B  =3B  =3BThe stations are:
=0A=
WH2XBA/1  =3B  =3B =0A= Bob W2ZM
=0A=
WH2XBA/2  =3B <= /span>Warren =0A= K2ORS
=0A=
WH2XBA/3  =3B  =3B =0A= Jay W1VD
=0A=
WH2XBA/4  =3B  =3B =0A= Dex  =3BW4DEX
=0A=
WH2XBA/5  =3B <= /span>Laurence KL1L =3B
=0A=
WH2XBA/6 /7 /8 etc etc James Plesa AA5BW
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=

=0A=
WH2XBA Grant Attached.
=0A=

=0A=
73 Warren K2ORS
=0A=

--
73 Warren K2ORS
 =3B  =3B  = =3B  =3B =0A=  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B WD2XGJ
 =3B  =3B =  =3B  =3B =0A=  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B WD2XSH/23
 =3B  = =3B  =3B  =3B =0A=  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B WE2XEB/2
 =3B  =3B=  =3B  =3B =0A=  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B WE2XGR/1 =0A=
 =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  = =3B  =3B =0A= WG2XRS/1
=0A=
 =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B  = =3B  =3B =0A= WH2XBA/2

 =3B =0A=

<= br clear=3D"all">=0A=

--
73 Warren K2ORS
 =3B  =3B  =3B &= nbsp=3B =0A=  =3B  =3B  =3B  =3B WD2XGJ
 =3B  =3B &nbs= p=3B  =3B  =3B =0A=  =3B  =3B  =3B WD2XSH/23
 =3B  =3B  =3B &n= bsp=3B  =3B =0A=  =3B  =3B  =3B WE2XEB/2
 =3B  =3B  =3B &nb= sp=3B  =3B  =3B =0A=  =3B  =3B WE2XGR/1

 =3B =0A=
= --_c6b0a051-9ff8-42f3-8b4d-27f236045e5f_--