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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id h5si5391236wie.3.2014.03.01.14.10.52 for ; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 14:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@btinternet.com Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1WJrRU-0002BA-53 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 21:27:32 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1WJrRT-0002B1-5I for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 21:27:31 +0000 Received: from smtpout15.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk ([65.20.0.135]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WJrRP-0003di-Ro for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 21:27:30 +0000 X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A090207.531250BE.002D,ss=1,re=0.000,recu=0.000,reip=0.000,cl=1,cld=1,fgs=0 X-Junkmail-Premium-Raw: score=12/97,refid=2.7.2:2014.3.1.153918:17:12.731,ip=,rules=__HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, MSGID_32HEX_LC, INVALID_MSGID_NO_FQDN, __MSGID_32HEX, __HAS_FROM, __PHISH_FROM2, __FRAUD_WEBMAIL_FROM, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __TO_NO_NAME, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __SUBJ_ALPHA_END, __MIME_VERSION, __CT, __CTYPE_MULTIPART_ALT, __CTYPE_HAS_BOUNDARY, __CTYPE_MULTIPART, __HAS_X_PRIORITY, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI, __HAS_X_MAILER, USER_AGENT_OE, __OUTLOOK_MUA_1, __USER_AGENT_MS_GENERIC, __ANY_URI, __FRAUD_BODY_WEBMAIL, __URI_NO_WWW, __CP_URI_IN_BODY, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, SUPERLONG_LINE, __HAS_HTML, BODY_SIZE_10000_PLUS, __MIME_HTML, __TAG_EXISTS_HTML, __STYLE_RATWARE_NEG, __URI_NS, HTML_50_70, __PHISH_FROM, __OUTLOOK_MUA, __FRAUD_WEBMAIL, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown Received: from gnat (86.146.137.200) by smtpout15.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk (8.6.100.99.10223) (authenticated as alan.melia@btinternet.com) id 530F68320025F315 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 21:27:25 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=btcpcloud; t=1393709247; bh=/ClQlVjhwJycZDdLur42eAX7H9TLbhVgPjh0fKxTLUQ=; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer; b=VNNXvf4uC4tFqH6PNWplK3g2/BPznFOnqaIwKZqTMQtck2xVgNBsygYw8n1FfvLQYvXJMblh4f5OoOOsrCUBrOHw6W1bkxGGn014KuxeMaZZYzxxmeQgpAysiyQuAz7GIvA6Xjrdv8R4iVkJAXzrQENSFKh4vBcBVlZQ177PJS4= Message-ID: From: "Alan Melia" To: References: ,<0BBAB019609B4DF69ED8DC4EE820D0AC@gnat> ,<896E2EEB46AE476C8A12FFD41758245B@gnat> Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 21:15:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Bob if you mean "skywave" or ionospheric returns? that occurs day and night at LF and VLF the skywave is weaker in daytime at LF due to a portion of absorbing D-lyer below the apparent reflection height, also at VLF but less so. At the powers we use the ground wave probably does not go very far. I think the two are about the same strength at around 400miles then the skywave predominates. It may be less with amateir antennas because a lot more of the signal is lanuched at higher angles that would be the case for big antenna on Mil sites. [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [65.20.0.135 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: e05c1c1de6c8bf9936a096d9a2bf63b0 Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01CF3593.66D54030" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.5 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK,HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNSAFE,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01CF3593.66D54030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob if you mean "skywave" or ionospheric returns? that occurs day and = night at LF and VLF the skywave is weaker in daytime at LF due to a = portion of absorbing D-lyer below the apparent reflection height, also = at VLF but less so. At the powers we use the ground wave probably does = not go very far. I think the two are about the same strength at around = 400miles then the skywave predominates. It may be less with amateir = antennas because a lot more of the signal is lanuched at higher angles = that would be the case for big antenna on Mil sites.=20 I think there is some confusion about VLF being "all groundwave". Many = of these ideas were formed in the days before Heaviside and Appleton. = Ionospheric return is fom the D-layer in daytime (with some absorption) = and by the lower E-layer at night. Paul Nicholson has front-ended some Mil propagtion software for VLF = called LWPC you can tell its the "real stuff it was written in Fortran = :-))=20 Single shot strengths are calculated for the date and time entered so = you can see diurnal effects. I have not tried it at very short range but = it certainly models he day-night transition quite well It is at http://abelian.org/lwpc/ Best Wishes for Good VLF DX Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Raide=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:14 PM Subject: RE: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA Alan; Will the "skip" be at night like all higher freqs? And the later = [early morning] might be best? Bob =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: alan.melia@btinternet.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 19:13:49 +0000 Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA Hi Bob=20 Almost certainly there will be "skywave" At 30 miles the ground and = skywaves may be out of phase and near the same strength. We can detect = two hop in the UK at 70miles range on 19.6kHz Anthorn. Not only that = your short antenna will throw quite a bit skywards.....it cant get = through the ionosphere so it gotta come back :-)) Alan ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Raide=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 6:22 PM Subject: RE: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA Alan; Do you think there will be nights of skywave propagation as low as = 30 kHz? Without it I don't see my .1 w ERP going anywhere close. BTW; I have a BC engineer friend about 30 miles from here. He could = barely hear my fundamental signal and said 60 kHz is S9 at his QTH. I measured my second harmonic-appears about -60 db down- at 58.998. = I will have a 60 kHz clock tomorrow to seen if any cal trouble right = here at transmitter location-Bob =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: alan.melia@btinternet.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 18:12:48 +0000 Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA Hi Warren I think the 70kHz "boundary" is just the point at which = the Earth-Ionosphere waveguide supports so many different modes that the = modelling becomes difficult and the ray path is as effective. Even this = transition is fuzzy and is often quoted as low as 50kHz.=20 It may be of interest that Paul Nicholson has put a web front end to = the LWPC propagation code http://abelian.org/lwpc/ This gives reasonable results up to around = 45kHz. I have done some tests on it and it gives quite sensible answers. Alan=20 G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Warren Ziegler=20 To: rsgb_lf_group=20 Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:54 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA Hi Alan,=20 I agree, there was nothing that I could find that indicated = that there would be a problem at 30kHz. I even checked with a well known = vlf expert who has done design work for some of the BIG military vlf = systems. Somewhere around 70kHz there is a transitional area between = waveguide modes applicable at vlf and ray-tracing which is applicable at = higher frequencies. The increased number of modes above 70kHz I believe = explains the deep fading there as the modes constructively and = destructively interfere. However, it didn't hurt to ask for the additional frequencies = as Dex was able to use an existing loading coil to get on 45kHz within = hours of the license being issued! 73 Warren K2ORS On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Alan Melia = wrote: Hi Warren I cant see30kHz being particularly different for = propgation in that part of the spectrum. I can see 2nd harmonic trashing = WWVB clock synchronisation over a substantial area though, bearing in = mind the receivers are very simple.........and most only try to sync = around midnight. Alan G3NYK. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Warren Ziegler=20 To: rsgb_lf_group=20 Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:17 PM Subject: LF: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA Hello the list, Several questions have come up concerning the WH2XBA grant = and I thought I might address them here. Bob W2ZM contacted me about = applying for a grant at the top end of the vlf range (just below 30kHz). The thought was that the high end of vlf would be a bit less = challenging than the low end below 9kHz (which is unregulated). Some of the usual suspects expressed interest so they were = added to the application. Also Jim AA5BW - Jim and I have a mutual = friend through work - Jim is highly capable and technical and has = multiple sites throughout the country. There was some concern that the = frequencies around 30kHz were unoccupied due to propagation reasons and = some thought it might be good to go a bit higher, hence the 27-59kHz = range, leaving clearance for WWVB at the top end.=20 The license is for 5W ERP, 27-59kHz, CW and every data = mode that I could think of. The application was filed on January 29 and the license = issued on February 27 - this was despite some Federal Holidays and = closings due to blizzards! So I suspect that it didn't raise too many = questions. The stations are: WH2XBA/1 Bob W2ZM WH2XBA/2 Warren K2ORS WH2XBA/3 Jay W1VD WH2XBA/4 Dex W4DEX WH2XBA/5 Laurence KL1L=20 WH2XBA/6 /7 /8 etc etc James Plesa AA5BW WH2XBA Grant Attached. 73 Warren K2ORS --=20 73 Warren K2ORS WD2XGJ=20 WD2XSH/23 WE2XEB/2 WE2XGR/1=20 WG2XRS/1 WH2XBA/2 =20 --=20 73 Warren K2ORS WD2XGJ=20 WD2XSH/23 WE2XEB/2 WE2XGR/1 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01CF3593.66D54030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bob if you mean "skywave" or = ionospheric=20 returns? that occurs day and night at LF and VLF the skywave is weaker = in=20 daytime at LF due to a portion of absorbing D-lyer below the apparent = reflection=20 height, also at VLF but less so. At the powers we use the ground wave = probably=20 does not go very far. I think the two are about the same strength at = around=20 400miles then the skywave predominates. It may be less with amateir = antennas=20 because a lot more of the signal is lanuched at higher angles that would = be the=20 case for big antenna on Mil sites.
 
I think there is some confusion about = VLF being=20 "all groundwave". Many of these ideas were formed in the days before = Heaviside=20 and Appleton. Ionospheric return is fom the D-layer in daytime (with = some=20 absorption) and by the lower E-layer at night.
 
Paul Nicholson has front-ended some Mil = propagtion=20 software for VLF called LWPC  you can tell its the "real stuff it = was=20 written in Fortran :-))
Single shot strengths are calculated = for the date=20 and time entered so you can see diurnal effects. I have not tried it at = very=20 short range but it certainly models he day-night transition quite=20 well
It is at http://abelian.org/lwpc/
 
Best Wishes for Good VLF = DX
Alan
G3NYK
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bob = Raide=20
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 = 8:14=20 PM
Subject: RE: LF: Re: U.S. VLF = License=20 WH2XBA

Alan;
Will the "skip" be at night like all higher = freqs? =20 And the later [early morning] might be best?  =20 Bob
 
From: alan.melia@btinternet.comTo:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Date:=20 Sat, 1 Mar 2014 19:13:49 +0000
Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF = License=20 WH2XBA

Hi Bob
Almost certainly there will be = "skywave" At 30=20 miles the ground and skywaves may be out of phase and near the same = strength.=20 We can detect two hop in the UK at 70miles range on 19.6kHz Anthorn. = Not only=20 that your short antenna will throw quite a bit skywards.....it cant = get=20 through the ionosphere so it gotta come back :-))
 
Alan
 
 
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 Bob Raide=20
To:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20 Sent:=20 Saturday, March 01, 2014 6:22 PM Subject:=20 RE: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA

Alan;
Do you think there will be nights of skywave = propagation as low as 30 kHz?  Without it I don't see my .1 w = ERP going=20 anywhere close.
BTW;
I have a BC engineer friend about 30 = miles from=20 here.  He could barely hear my fundamental signal and said = 60 kHz=20 is S9 at his QTH.
I measured my second harmonic-appears = about -60 db=20 down- at 58.998.  
I will have a 60 kHz clock tomorrow = to seen=20 if any cal trouble right here at transmitter = location-Bob
 
From: alan.melia@btinternet.com
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date:=20 Sat, 1 Mar 2014 18:12:48 +0000
Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF = License=20 WH2XBA

Hi Warren I think the 70kHz = "boundary" is just=20 the point at which the Earth-Ionosphere waveguide supports so many = different=20 modes that the modelling becomes difficult and the ray path is as=20 effective.  Even this transition is fuzzy and is often quoted = as low as=20 50kHz.
 
It may be of interest that Paul = Nicholson has=20 put a web front end to the LWPC propagation code
http://abelian.org/lwpc/  This gives = reasonable=20 results up to around 45kHz. I have done some tests on it and it = gives quite=20 sensible answers.
 
Alan
G3NYK
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 Warren=20 Ziegler
To:=20 rsgb_lf_group = Sent:=20 Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:54 PM Subject:=20 Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA

Hi Alan,=20

      I agree, there was nothing that I could = find=20 that indicated that there would be a problem at 30kHz. I even = checked with=20 a well known vlf expert who has done design work for some of the = BIG=20 military vlf systems. Somewhere around 70kHz there is a = transitional area=20 between waveguide modes applicable at vlf and ray-tracing which is = applicable at higher frequencies. The increased number of modes = above=20 70kHz I believe explains the deep fading there as the modes = constructively=20 and destructively interfere.
   However, it didn't hurt to ask for the = additional=20 frequencies as Dex was able to use an existing loading coil to get = on=20 45kHz within hours of the license being issued!


73 Warren K2ORS



On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Alan = Melia=20 <alan.melia@btinternet.com> = wrote:
Hi Warren I cant see30kHz being = particularly=20 different for propgation in that part of the spectrum. I can see = 2nd=20 harmonic trashing WWVB clock synchronisation over a substantial = area=20 though, bearing in mind the receivers are very = simple.........and most=20 only try to sync around midnight.
 
Alan
G3NYK.
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 Warren Ziegler
To:=20 rsgb_lf_group
Sent:=20 Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:17 PM Subject:=20 LF: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA

Hello the list,

    Several questions have come up concerning = the=20 WH2XBA grant and I thought I might address them here. =  Bob W2ZM=20 contacted me about applying for a grant at the top end of the = vlf=20 range (just below 30kHz).
The thought was that the high end of vlf would be a bit = less=20 challenging than the low end below 9kHz (which is = unregulated).

    Some of the usual suspects expressed = interest so=20 they were added to the application. Also Jim AA5BW - Jim and I = have a=20 mutual friend through work - Jim is highly capable and =  technical=20 and has multiple sites throughout the country.   There = was some=20 concern that the frequencies around 30kHz were unoccupied due = to=20 propagation reasons and some thought it might be good to go a = bit=20 higher, hence the 27-59kHz range, leaving clearance for WWVB = at the=20 top end. 

     The license is for 5W ERP, 27-59kHz, = CW and=20 every data mode that I could think of.

    The application was filed on January 29 and = the=20 license issued on February 27 - this was despite some Federal = Holidays=20 and closings due to blizzards!  So I suspect that it = didn't raise=20 too many questions.

     The stations are:
WH2XBA/1    =20 Bob W2ZM
WH2XBA/2   Warren=20 K2ORS
WH2XBA/3    =20 Jay W1VD
WH2XBA/4    =20 Dex  W4DEX
WH2XBA/5   Laurence = KL1L 
WH2XBA/6 /7 /8 etc etc James Plesa AA5BW
 

WH2XBA Grant Attached.

73 Warren K2ORS

--
73 Warren K2ORS
      =  =20         WD2XGJ
      =  =20         WD2XSH/23
      =  =20         WE2XEB/2
      =  =20         WE2XGR/1=20
               =20 WG2XRS/1
               =20 WH2XBA/2

 =20 =


--
73 Warren K2ORS
      =  =20         WD2XGJ
        =  =20       WD2XSH/23
        =  =20       WE2XEB/2
        =    =20     WE2XGR/1

 =20 = ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01CF3593.66D54030--