Delivered-To: daveyxm@virginmedia.com Received: by 10.50.237.98 with SMTP id vb2csp22033igc; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 21:23:59 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.194.104.42 with SMTP id gb10mr59924154wjb.16.1388726639214; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 21:23:59 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com. [195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id mw18si246809wic.8.2014.01.02.21.23.58 for ; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 21:23:59 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1VywiZ-0000cg-Pv for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 04:50:43 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1VywiY-0000cX-Cj for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 04:50:42 +0000 Received: from blu0-omc1-s28.blu0.hotmail.com ([65.55.116.39]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1VywiU-0003fV-13 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 04:50:41 +0000 Received: from BLU180-W53 ([65.55.116.8]) by blu0-omc1-s28.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 2 Jan 2014 20:50:35 -0800 X-TMN: [m2naZITxUAnpy2oVnsiE0q76gfs9yo9t] X-Originating-Email: [rjraide@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: Bob Raide To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 23:50:34 -0500 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000b01cf0833$c9e053f0$6401a8c0@JAYDELL> References: ,<006301cf0829$c324bd80$6401a8c0@JAYDELL> ,<000b01cf0833$c9e053f0$6401a8c0@JAYDELL> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jan 2014 04:50:35.0939 (UTC) FILETIME=[57676730:01CF083F] X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Jay; No question about SNR being a factor. Very important you-know if anyone would. However, the Coast I would attempt to hit is not necessarily, in fact not likely California but Washington or maybe VE7. It would be best to have the Easterly generated signal transverse as much of the great lakes as possible and the Dakotas-N Dakota preferably. The highest soil conductivity is in N Dakota I have been told, where for hundreds of miles it's on the order of 30-50. I would use the soil map to plot a course and as far North as possible for the colder weather. [...] Content analysis details: (-0.5 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [65.55.116.39 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (rjraide[at]hotmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.5 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 734117148d33b14891a4c00985e2e8f8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_003e5351-8e51-4ea4-b2bd-388e36cd8c7f_" Subject: RE: LF: Coast to Coast on 74kHz ground wave ? X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD,HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false --_003e5351-8e51-4ea4-b2bd-388e36cd8c7f_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay=3B No question about SNR being a factor. Very important you-know if anyone wo= uld. However=2C the Coast I would attempt to hit is not necessarily=2C in = fact not likely California but Washington or maybe VE7. It would be best t= o have the Easterly generated signal transverse as much of the great lakes = as possible and the Dakotas-N Dakota preferably. The highest soil conducti= vity is in N Dakota I have been told=2C where for hundreds of miles it's on= the order of 30-50. I would use the soil map to plot a course and as far= North as possible for the colder weather. =20 From: jrusgrove@comcast.net To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thu=2C 2 Jan 2014 22:27:53 -0500 Subject: Re: LF: Coast to Coast on 74kHz ground wave ? =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Bob=0A= =0A= Here are the 'signal only' plots for winter and =0A= summer ... http://www.w1vd.com/WWVBwintersummersig.jpg .=0A= =0A= Apparently not much difference at 60 kHz ... =0A= other than hours of daylight. SNR plots probably more relavent for the test= =0A= under discussion.=0A= =0A= Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 =0A= WG2XRS/2=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= ----- Original Message ----- =0A= From: =0A= Bob Raide =0A= =0A= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A= =0A= Sent: Thursday=2C January 02=2C 2014 9:39 =0A= PM=0A= Subject: RE: LF: Coast to Coast on 74kHz =0A= ground wave ?=0A= =20 =0A= Jay=3B The only actual way to determine if it's field strength =0A= is of course to take field strength measurements. Frozen ground makes = =0A= the biggest conductivity change. And to what depth of ground is frozen = =0A= as well effects the field intensity. =20 The lower the freq also =0A= tremendously effects groundwave coverage regardless of the conductivity. = =0A= That is also included in part 73-74 of the Commission's rules. Each =0A= of the 10 kHz channels is shown. All AM broadcasters=2C of course want t= o =0A= get the lowest freq that can be found for their =0A= allocation.=20 Distances reached are shown for each =0A= broadcast 10 kHz channel in the rules as well over a given =0A= conductivity path. BTW=3B The 60 kHz WWVB is a direction array to better =0A= cover the US proper. =20 =0A= =0A= =0A= From: jrusgrove@comcast.net To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thu=2C =0A= 2 Jan 2014 21:16:07 -0500 Subject: Re: LF: Coast to Coast on 74kHz ground =0A= wave ? =0A= =0A= =0A= Laurence=2C Bob=0A= =0A= I cherry picked the winter and summer SNR levels =0A= of WWVB at different US locations ... see =0A= =0A= http://www.w1vd.com/WWVB20wintersummer.jpg . =0A= =0A= =0A= The daytime path from Boulder to Cutler =0A= ME is about 7 dB better SNR in the winter and fairly flat from 1600 - 200= 0Z. =0A= The daytime path from Boulder to San Diego is a bit more 'peaky' with bes= t SNR =0A= at about 1800 Z but is only a few dB better in winter vs. summer. =0A= =0A= =0A= While this doesn't shed a lot of light =0A= on what to expect coast to coast it does confirm the advantage of =0A= wintertime conditions at 60 kHz. I don't have information as to whether = =0A= the SNR differences are due to changes in ground conductivity=2C lower = =0A= background noise=2C or some combination of both. =0A= =0A= Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 =0A= WG2XRS/2 =0A= =0A= ----- =0A= Original Message ----- =0A= From: =0A= Bob Raide =0A= =0A= To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A= =0A= Sent: =0A= Thursday=2C January 02=2C 2014 8:09 PM=0A= Subject: =0A= RE: LF: Coast to Coast on 74kHz ground wave ?=0A= =20 =0A= Laurence=3B It would be easy to determine coverage of radio =0A= signals of longer wavelengths using the soil map. However=2C =0A= the "soil map" is only an estimate and changes DRASTICALLY from =0A= season to season. When the ground freezes the conductivity in my area = =0A= goes from about a 3 [soil map shows I'm in 4] to over 12-14 and the col= der =0A= it gets the higher it goes! I have been and still am in =0A= the broadcast business building my first AM station licensed to =0A= Penn Yan NY in 1980. Transmitter site just west of where I =0A= am sitting right now. I found 850 kHz fit here perfectly for a KW =0A= daytimer. My consulting engineer Harold =0A= Munn in Michigan said "no so fast". You see=2C measurements =0A= takes precedence over the soil map. It happens that I was up =0A= against the Cornell University 870 5KW station and clearance was =0A= somewhat close but signals did not overlap. I rented a calibrated =0A= field set [FIM41] and took the measurements in March. Broadcast =0A= engineers and communications attorneys want to see cold weather measure= ments =0A= not those taken in 100 degree July heat! My council tendered my =0A= app along with my measurements. This measurement program was not to = =0A= end here! Before it was over with Cornell's engineers and council 3 = =0A= sets of measurements were taken and finally joint measurements were =0A= agreed upon in October of the following year! I have since built or =0A= modified and owned 4 other AMs-all requiring measurements to show =0A= the allocations or modifications fit for one reason or =0A= another. Needless to say for an attempt at west coast groundwave I would =0A= also look at as close to 68 kHz as I could find clear! Lower the freq = =0A= the further the groundwave per meter of signal strength. This is why I =0A= made the statement that a signal must be put on the air to determine = =0A= coverage! I would only attempt such a feat as hitting the west coast = =0A= groundwave in dead cold frozen ground of Winter!!! Frozen ground is = =0A= cheating a bit and engineers taking measurements would never agree to s= uch =0A= measurements unless they could be averaged with mid summer measurements= and =0A= the average taken for the allocation.=20 The soil map? In the =0A= world of broadcast engineering "don't mean stink". =20 =0A= =0A= =0A= From: hellozerohellozero@hotmail.com To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thu=2C 2 Jan 2014 15:20:00 =0A= -0900 Subject: LF: Coast to Coast on 74kHz ground wave ? =0A= =0A= =0A= Hi Chaps - I saw the discussion on the modes and losses =0A= and wanted to add a bit -=20 =20 When looking at WWVB 60Khz =0A= (close to 74?) contours for daytime I notice more of a Vertical peanut = shape =0A= in the fiedlstrength favoring North South=2C with highest losses over = =0A= Mountaineous terrain and likely the lowest ground conductivity=2C say b= etween =0A= 0.5 and 2 milliseimens - something we see (in general) afforded by grou= nd to =0A= the West of Ft Collins (especially NW) and to the Eastern mountain rang= es=2C =0A= and its not too Bright on most bearings from here in Alaska as we have = a lot =0A= of the pointy high snow covered thingies up here too. I see they =0A= plonked WWVB there due to having local high Alkalinity of the soil - hi= gh =0A= conductance. =20 Whether given the height of the mountains =0A= even at 60kHz we loose a bit more than flat Earth Id say a whopping Yes= =2C =0A= that and some of the oddities that ground waves going over glaciers can= have =0A= all add up to further attenuation. =20 Have a looksee at http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/m3-map-effective-ground-c= onductivity-united-states-wall-sized-map-am-broadcast-stations =20 If =0A= I look at how /4 gets up here - it would in reality have to be a fairly= high =0A= angle reflection=2C as Im close in to the Chugach and Talkeetna Mountai= ns and =0A= those mountain ranges extends hundered of miles on the =0A= /4 bearing. - I see no signal at all (ok I wasnt using OPds) and =0A= even with a reasonable antennae and good s/n its a sky wave opening =0A= only - well=2C at any reasonably power that we can generate. Whereas he= was =0A= strong in CA last night he was only just detectable up here - though I = blame =0A= the Auroral ovaly stuff too for that. =20 Interestingly enough and =0A= with the limited amount of data - if Bob was to generate another 3dB he= =0A= would have probably been visisble at dot 60 every night to date over th= e =0A= 5000Kms path or so =2C ie a lot less variation on a day to day than I s= ee at =0A= 137. =20 On groundwave on 137 I did some reasonable tests and with =0A= my 3W ERP (ish) in the main loop on a quiet iono day in Autumn maintain= ing a =0A= CW just read level of some 1000Kms down to Corpus Christi from the =0A= OKie/Kansas Border and but out West was considerably poorer - we =0A= had poor conductivity to the West of us for a while.... =20 I saw =0A= with interest on the NIST web site the scalloped nature of signal recep= tion =0A= at night at 60KHz at some times of the night. =20 http://tf.nist.gov/images/radiostations/wwvb-large/0800utc.jpg =20 Cheers =0A= from a soggy snowyish =0A= Anchorage. =20 =20 =20 =20 = --_003e5351-8e51-4ea4-b2bd-388e36cd8c7f_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jay=3B
No question about SNR = being a factor. =3B Very important you-know if anyone would. =3B Ho= wever=2C the =3BCoast I would attempt to hit is not necessarily=2C in f= act not likely California but Washington or maybe VE7. =3B It would be = best to have the Easterly generated signal transverse =3Bas much of the= great lakes as possible and the Dakotas-N Dakota preferably. =3B The h= ighest soil conductivity is in N Dakota I have been told=2C where for hundr= eds of miles =3Bit's on the order of 30-50. =3B I would use the soi= l =3B map =3Bto plot a course and as far North as possible for the = colder weather.
 =3B
From: jrusgrove= @comcast.net
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Thu=2C 2 Jan 2014= 22:27:53 -0500
Subject: Re: LF: Coast to Coast on 74kHz ground wave ?
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
Bob
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Here are the 'signal only' plots for w= inter and =0A= summer ... http://www.w1vd.com/WWVBwintersummersig.jpg =3B.=
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Apparently not much difference =3B= at 60 kHz ... =0A= other than hours of daylight. =3BSNR plots probably more relavent for t= he test =0A= under discussion.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Jay W1VD =3B WD2XNS =3B WE2XGR= /2 =3B =0A= WG2XRS/2
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
=0A=
----- Original Message -----
=0A=
From: =0A= Bob = Raide =0A=
=0A= =0A=
Sent: Thursday=2C January 02=2C 2014 9:39 =0A= PM
=0A=
Subject: RE: LF: Coast to Coast on 74kHz =0A= ground wave ?
=0A=

=0A=
Jay=3B
The only actual way to determine if it's field= strength =0A= is of course to take field strength measurements. =3B Frozen ground m= akes =0A= the biggest conductivity change. =3B And to what depth of ground is f= rozen =0A= as well effects the field intensity. =3B =3B
The lower the fre= q also =0A= tremendously effects groundwave coverage regardless of the conductivity.&= nbsp=3B =0A= That is also =3Bincluded in part 73-74 of the Commission's rules.&nbs= p=3B Each =0A= of the 10 kHz channels is shown. =3B All AM broadcasters=2C of course= want to =0A= get the lowest freq that can be found for =3Btheir =0A= allocation. =3B
 =3BDistances =3Breached are =3Bshown = for each =0A= broadcast =3B10 kHz channel in the rules as =3Bwell over a given = =0A= conductivity path.
BTW=3B
The 60 kHz WWVB is a direction array to b= etter =0A= cover the US proper. =3B  =3B
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= From: jrusgrove@comcast.net
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: = Thu=2C =0A= 2 Jan 2014 21:16:07 -0500
Subject: Re: LF: Coast to Coast on 74kHz gro= und =0A= wave ?

=0A= =0A= =0A=
Laurence=2C Bob
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
I cherry picked the winter and summe= r SNR levels =0A= of WWVB at different US locations ... =3B see
=0A=
 =3B
=0A= =0A=
 =3B
=0A=
The =3Bdaytime path =3Bfrom = Boulder to Cutler =0A= ME is about 7 dB better SNR in the winter and fairly flat from 1600 - 200= 0Z. =0A= The daytime path from Boulder to San Diego is a bit more 'peaky' with bes= t SNR =0A= at about 1800 Z but is only a few dB better in winter vs. summer. =0A=
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
While this doesn't shed a lot of lig= ht =0A= on =3Bwhat to expect coast to coast it does confirm the advantage of = =0A= wintertime conditions at 60 kHz. I don't have information as to =3Bwh= ether =0A= the SNR differences are due to changes in ground conductivity=2C lower = =0A= background noise=2C or some combination of both. =3B
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Jay W1VD =3B WD2XNS =3B WE2X= GR/2 =3B =0A= WG2XRS/2 =3B =3B
=0A=
=0A=
----- =0A= Original Message -----
=0A=
From: =0A= Bo= b Raide =0A=
=0A= =0A=
Sent: =0A= Thursday=2C January 02=2C 2014 8:09 PM
=0A=
Subject: =0A= RE: LF: Coast to Coast on 74kHz ground wave ?
=0A=

=0A=
Laurence=3B
It would be easy to determine coverage = of radio =0A= signals =3Bof longer wavelengths using the soil map. =3B Howeve= r=2C =0A= the =3B"soil map" is only an estimate and changes =3BDRASTICALL= Y from =0A= season to season. =3B When the ground freezes the conductivity in m= y area =0A= goes from about a 3 [soil map shows I'm in 4] to over 12-14 and the col= der =0A= it gets the higher it goes! =3B I have been and still am =3Bin = =0A= the =3Bbroadcast business building =3Bmy first AM station licen= sed to =0A= Penn Yan NY =3Bin 1980. =3B Transmitter site just west of = =3Bwhere I =0A= am sitting right now. =3B I found 850 kHz fit here perfectly for a = KW =0A= daytimer. =3B My =3Bconsulting engineer Harold =0A= Munn =3Bin =3BMichigan said "no so fast". =3B You see=2C me= asurements =0A= takes precedence =3Bover the =3Bsoil map. =3B It happens th= at I was up =0A= against the Cornell =3BUniversity 870 5KW station and clearance was= =0A= somewhat close but signals did not overlap. =3B =3BI rented a c= alibrated =0A= field set [FIM41] and took the measurements in March. =3B Broadcast= =0A= engineers and communications attorneys want to see cold weather measure= ments =0A= not those taken in 100 degree July heat! =3B =3BMy council tend= ered my =0A= app along with my measurements. =3B This measurement program was no= t to =0A= end here! =3B Before it was over with Cornell's engineers and counc= il 3 =0A= sets of measurements were taken and finally joint measurements were =0A= agreed =3Bupon in October of the following year!
I have since bu= ilt or =0A= modified and owned =3B4 other AMs-all requiring measurements to&nbs= p=3Bshow =0A= the allocations or modifications =3Bfit for one reason or =0A= another.
Needless to say for an attempt at west coast groundwave I w= ould =0A= also =3Blook at as close to 68 kHz as I could find clear! Lower the= freq =0A= the further the groundwave per meter of signal strength.
This is why= I =0A= made the statement =3Bthat a signal must be put on the air to deter= mine =0A= coverage! =3B I would only attempt such a feat as hitting the west = coast =0A= groundwave in dead cold frozen ground of Winter!!! =3B Frozen groun= d is =0A= cheating a bit and engineers taking measurements would never agree to s= uch =0A= measurements unless they could be averaged with mid summer measurements= and =0A= the average taken for the allocation. =3B
The soil map? =3B = In the =0A= world of broadcast engineering "don't mean stink".
 =3B
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= From: hellozerohellozero@hotmail.com
To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Thu=2C 2 Jan 2014 15:20:00 =0A= -0900
Subject: LF: Coast to Coast on 74kHz ground wave ?

=0A= =0A= =0A=
Hi Chaps - I =3Bsaw the discussion on the modes an= d losses =0A= and wanted to add a bit -
 =3B
When looking at WWVB 60Khz&nb= sp=3B =0A= (close to 74?) contours for daytime I notice more of a Vertical peanut = shape =0A= in the fiedlstrength favoring North South=2C with highest losses over = =0A= Mountaineous terrain and likely the lowest ground conductivity=2C say b= etween =0A= 0.5 and 2 milliseimens - something we see (in general) afforded by grou= nd to =0A= the West of Ft Collins (especially NW) and to the Eastern mountain rang= es=2C =0A= and its not too Bright on most bearings from here in Alaska as we have = a lot =0A= of the pointy high snow covered thingies up here too. =3B I see the= y =0A= plonked WWVB there due to having local high Alkalinity of the soil - hi= gh =0A= conductance.
 =3B
 =3BWhether given the height of the mou= ntains =0A= even at 60kHz we loose a bit more than flat Earth Id say a whopping Yes= =2C =0A= that and some of the oddities that ground waves going over glaciers can= have =0A= all add up to further attenuation.
 =3B
Have a looksee at htt= p://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/m3-map-effective-ground-conductivity-united-st= ates-wall-sized-map-am-broadcast-stations
 =3B
If =0A= I look at how /4 gets up here - it would in reality have to be a fairly= high =0A= angle reflection=2C as Im close in to the Chugach and Talkeetna Mountai= ns and =0A= those mountain ranges extends hundered of miles on the =0A= /4 =3Bbearing. =3B- I see no signal at all (ok I wasnt using OP= ds) and =0A= even with =3Ba reasonable antennae and good s/n its a sky wave open= ing =0A= only - well=2C at any reasonably power that we can generate. Whereas he= was =0A= strong in CA last night he was only just detectable up here - though I = blame =0A= the Auroral ovaly stuff too for that.
 =3B
Interestingly enou= gh and =0A= with the limited amount of data - if Bob was to generate another 3dB he= =0A= would have probably been visisble at dot 60 every night to date over th= e =0A= 5000Kms path or so =2C ie a lot less variation on a day to day than I s= ee at =0A= 137.
 =3B
On groundwave on 137 I did some reasonable tests an= d with =0A= my 3W ERP (ish) in the main loop on a quiet iono day in Autumn maintain= ing a =0A= CW just read level of some 1000Kms down to Corpus Christi from the =0A= OKie/Kansas Border and =3B but out West =3B was considerably po= orer - we =0A= had poor conductivity to the West of us for a while....
 =3B
= I saw =0A= with interest on the NIST web site the scalloped nature of signal recep= tion =0A= at night =3B at 60KHz at some times of the night.
 =3B
http://tf.nist.gov/images/radiostations/wwvb-large/0800utc.= jpg
 =3B
Cheers =0A= from a soggy snowyish =0A= Anchorage.
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
= --_003e5351-8e51-4ea4-b2bd-388e36cd8c7f_--