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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id fu8si12245324wib.44.2013.12.26.15.18.56 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2013 15:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1VwK5q-0002zW-By for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 26 Dec 2013 23:11:54 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1VwK5p-0002zN-G0 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 26 Dec 2013 23:11:53 +0000 Received: from blu0-omc1-s8.blu0.hotmail.com ([65.55.116.19]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1VwK5m-0008DE-Fg for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 26 Dec 2013 23:11:52 +0000 Received: from BLU180-W34 ([65.55.116.8]) by blu0-omc1-s8.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 26 Dec 2013 15:11:49 -0800 X-TMN: [gsDMLOzIXI3WAnzJiagfPqS8w+mJ25pi] X-Originating-Email: [rjraide@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: Bob Raide To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 18:11:49 -0500 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <02b601cf0287$e6429f00$b2c7dd00$@comcast.net> References: <2f507c1ff91346b2b8adba0518611224@kabelmail.de> <39966C71EF4543899F81399598C190F7@Extensa> <52BBFDC4.3010507@psk31.plus.com>,<52BC272F.7040803@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> ,<52BC683B.5030107@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> ,<52BC78F9.4000206@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> ,<02b601cf0287$e6429f00$b2c7dd00$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Dec 2013 23:11:49.0815 (UTC) FILETIME=[DB32C470:01CF028F] X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Jim; I see it's a liquid that is really a coolant. I use clear lacquer and corona dope in a spray can and spray coils with it. I use Stefan's round brass balls that I have soldered to any point that shows signs of corona arcing. It's at the high voltage end of the coil that starts causing trouble and from that point onward. Fluorinert would be great for an item that had high voltages and large amounts of heat present to submerge the item in it-Bob [...] Content analysis details: (1.1 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [65.55.116.19 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (rjraide[at]hotmail.com) 1.6 SUBJ_ALL_CAPS Subject is all capitals -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.6 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 1723994b96364fbc892cb8d93e13abcb Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_2b35f9f0-1f18-43df-8605-326ef0cae5f5_" Subject: RE: VLF: 8969.99 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD,HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE,SUBJ_ALL_CAPS,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1774 --_2b35f9f0-1f18-43df-8605-326ef0cae5f5_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim=3B I see it's a liquid that is really a coolant. I use clear lacquer and coro= na dope in a spray can and spray coils with it. I use Stefan's round brass= balls that I have soldered to any point that shows signs of corona arcing= . It's at the high voltage end of the coil that starts causing trouble an= d from that point onward.=20 Fluorinert would be great for an item that had high voltages and large amo= unts of heat present to submerge the item in it-Bob =20 From: hvanesce@comcast.net To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thu=2C 26 Dec 2013 15:14:36 -0700 Subject: RE: VLF: 8969.99 Bob and Stefan=2C Any thought of using Fluorinert to prevent coil breakdown= ? In indoor applications=2C if we didn=92t want a high-voltage (including 1= 00kV and higher) coil (or transformer or connector or circuit board) to arc= (including during wide-temperature range testing)=2C we would simply drop = the whole device (including batteries=2C power supply and modulator=2C if t= hat made things more convenient) into fluorinert=2C without any insulation= =2C encapsulation or coating on the circuit boards=2C coil or other compone= nts. We re-used the fluorinert without complications=2C and after removing = items from fluorinert did not need to clean the previously-immersed items i= n any way. High dielectric strength: >160kV/cmHigh resistivity: > 10^15 oh= m-cm (1E15 ohm-cm)InertWide temperature range: -70C < T < 150C (various fo= rmulations available down to -100C and up to 215C) Thermal conductivity: 0.= 07 W/m*K (ROM similar to water)Color: colorless=2C clear (transparency ROM = same as purified water)Toxicity: non-toxic for practical purposes=2C non-ha= zardous according to 3M. Experimental deep-water breathing fluid=3B inert= =3B but as with all products observe safety data sheet (3M: =93=85 not reco= mmended for implantation in humans=94 =93=85 Eye Contact: =85 flush=2C rins= e=94)=3B the following lends a perspective: (3M) =93=85skin/eye irritation:= no significant irritation=94=3B =93if swallowed: no need for first aid is= anticipated=94. Downside: ~ $200 USD per gallon from manufacturer=3B but r= eclaimed fluorinert is available at lower prices.The evaporation rate is pr= obably dependent on which formulation you select=3B I=92ve heard some folks= mention quick evaporation at > 100C temperatures=2C but I do not remember = needing to add fluorinert during environmental temperature testing=3B a wid= e range of formulations with different boiling points is available. 73=2C = Jim AA5BW From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_g= roup@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Bob Raide Sent: Thursday=2C December 26=2C 2013 12:05 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: VLF: 8969.99 Stefan=3B I understand your setup. It is not that hard to move. I am not going to use such low VLF freq but as I mentioned am going for lic= ense to try get 28-30 kHz. Then I can run power up with less troubles of 8= .9 kHz freq. It won't be till next season but am planning now for coil cov= er-coil size-etc. I have already 2' piece 18 inch white PVC pipe. Will wi= nd 1000 meters #16 wire to start. I want to use my present 74 kHz coil ins= ide as it is and add the extra coil outside then I can trim inside to hit e= xact resonance.=20 Date: Thu=2C 26 Dec 2013 19:44:09 +0100 From: Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: VLF: 8969.99 Hi Bob=2C=20 Oh=2C you're planning to become QRV on VLF=2C great!=20 What inductance will you need for your system? What coil diameter and wire = diameter will you use? It is important to calculate the dimension of that c= oil before you start to wind it. A diameter of at least 60cm is to be recom= mended=2C better 80cm. But of course it depends on the wire diameter and is= olation (or insulation?). If you just use a coil body that is on hand and s= tart winding=2C you may find the residual L is much to low and then you com= e out with 3 coils in series which will be a huge construction in very inef= ficient. You should also leave some distance to ground=2C to prevent losses= into the soil. A distance equal to the coil diameter is fine. How will you manage the high voltages on the antenna? You will have to mana= ge 50 kV rms or so.=20 For me=2C the situation is not as easy. I must not leave the coil its posit= ion permanenty. I have to remove it after the experiment. But that's not so= dramatic. I can leave it into the building and we have an elevator... Keep us informed by some photos :-) 73=2C Stefan/DK7FC Am 26.12.2013 18:58=2C schrieb Bob Raide: Stefan=3B If I go to VLF I am going to add to my existing inductance outside. I plan= to make a box using "plexiglass" quarter inch thick with glued seams so is= weather proof. It will be clear [no color] and is very good dielectric. = I was going to ask you how much clearance I need and 30 cm is about 1 foot = or 12 inches clearance around the coil. Leave air gap around bottom so air= can circulate so you don't build up moisture. Small muffin fan with shrou= d to pull fresh air up and around coil and out. Could even use clear vinyl material .025 thick and a clear vinyl box over a= plastic pipe frame would be cheaper. Clear vinyl used for side curtains o= n boats-etc.=20 I am in sewing business [make boat and truck covers] so could make you cove= r and you build the frame-I ship clear vinyl cover UPS to you or you could = have local canvas company make it. Use "RTV" over stitches to make water t= ight-Bob Date: Thu=2C 26 Dec 2013 18:32:43 +0100 From: Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: VLF: 8969.99 Hi Bob=2C=20 Of course=2C if the coil is protected against rain=2C then it is no problem= . But the coil is quite large and due to the high voltage=2C the housing sh= ould ideally have a distance of 30cm or more to the coil. So the housing mu= st be quite large=2C even more. And that makes it dangerous because of wind= blasts on the to of the building in 35m AGL...=20 Anyway it would be nice and i also thought about using a simple foil across= the coil=2C without additional distance.=20 However on LF=2C there are partial discharges on the top of the coil which = burns holes into the protecting foil. And the VLF winding is 2000m long. It= is a lot of effort to repair it after a short cut between some turns due t= o arcing. So it is a high risk.=20 I think i will make a test in the near future and see if 9 kHz partial disc= harges are as agressive as 137 kHz partial discharges :-) 73=2C Stefan/DK7FC Am 26.12.2013 16:32=2C schrieb Bob Raide: Stefan=3B Even if you have your coils in weather proof housing rain is no good to tra= nsmit on 9 kHz? Bob Date: Thu=2C 26 Dec 2013 13:55:11 +0100 From: Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: VLF: 8969.99 Hi Uwe=2C Tom=2C VLF=2C Best signal ever from Tom=2C capture attached. Is it due to the propagation= or did it improve your signal? What about some tests in OPDS32 or maybe JT9-30? Unfortunately there is per= manent rain here so i have to wait some days longer. 73=2C Stefan/DK7FC = --_2b35f9f0-1f18-43df-8605-326ef0cae5f5_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jim=3B
I see it's a liquid th= at is really a coolant. =3B I use clear =3Blacquer and corona dope&= nbsp=3Bin a spray can and spray coils with it.  =3BI use Stefan's round=  =3Bbrass balls that I have soldered =3Bto any point that shows sig= ns of corona =3B arcing.  =3BIt's at the high voltage end of the co= il that starts causing trouble =3B and from that point onward. =3B<= BR> =3BFluorinert would be =3Bgreat for =3Ban item that had&nbs= p=3Bhigh voltages and large =3Bamounts of =3Bheat present =3Bto= submerge the item in it-Bob
 =3B
Fr= om: hvanesce@comcast.net
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Thu= =2C 26 Dec 2013 15:14:36 -0700
Subject: RE: VLF: 8969.99

Bob and Stefan=2C

 =3B

Any thought of using Fluorinert to p= revent coil breakdown?

 =3B

In indoor applications=2C if we didn=92t want a high-volt= age (including 100kV and higher) coil (or transformer or connector or circu= it board) to arc (including during wide-temperature range testing)=2C we wo= uld simply drop the whole device (including batteries=2C power supply and m= odulator=2C if that made things more convenient) into fluorinert=2C without= any insulation=2C encapsulation or coating on the circuit boards=2C coil o= r other components. We re-used the fluorinert without complications=2C and = after removing items from fluorinert did not need to clean the previously-i= mmersed items in any way.

 =3B

High dielectric strength: >=3B160kV/cm

=

High resistivity:= >=3B 10^15 ohm-cm =3B (1E15 ohm-cm)

Inert

Wide temperature range: -70C <=3B T &l= t=3B 150C (various formulations available down to -100C and up to 215C)

Thermal c= onductivity: 0.07 W/m*K (ROM similar to water)

Color: colorless=2C clear (transpar= ency ROM same as purified water)

Toxicity: non-toxic for practical purposes=2C non= -hazardous according to 3M. Experimental deep-water breathing fluid=3B iner= t=3B but as with all products observe safety data sheet (3M: =93=85 not rec= ommended for implantation in humans=94 =93=85 Eye Contact: =85 flush=2C rin= se=94)=3B the following lends a perspective: (3M) =93=85skin/eye irritation= : no significant irritation=94=3B =3B =93if swallowed: no need for firs= t aid is anticipated=94.

 =3B

Downside: ~ $200 USD per gallon from manufacturer=3B b= ut reclaimed fluorinert is available at lower prices.

The evaporation rate is prob= ably dependent on which formulation you select=3B I=92ve heard some folks m= ention quick evaporation at >=3B 100C temperatures=2C but I do not rememb= er needing to add fluorinert during environmental temperature testing=3B a = wide range of formulations with different boiling points is available.

 =3B

73=2C Ji= m AA5BW

 =3B

 =3B

From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-r= sgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Bob Raide
Sent: = Thursday=2C December 26=2C 2013 12:05 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org
Subject: RE: VLF: 8969.99

 =3B

Stefan=3B
I understand your s= etup. =3B It is not that hard to move.
I am not going to use such lo= w VLF freq but as I mentioned am going for license to try get 28-30 kHz.&nb= sp=3B Then I can run power up with less troubles of 8.9 kHz freq. =3B I= t won't be till next season but am planning now for coil cover-coil size-et= c. =3B I have already 2' piece 18 inch white PVC pipe. =3B Will win= d 1000 meters #16 wire to start. =3B I want to use my present 74 kHz co= il inside as it is and add the extra coil outside then I can trim inside to= hit exact resonance.
 =3B

Date: Thu=2C 26 Dec 2013 = 19:44:09 +0100
From: Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re= : VLF: 8969.99

Hi Bob=2C

Oh=2C you're planning to become QRV= on VLF=2C great!
What inductance will you need for your system? What c= oil diameter and wire diameter will you use? It is important to calculate t= he dimension of that coil before you start to wind it. A diameter of at lea= st 60cm is to be recommended=2C better 80cm. But of course it depends on th= e wire diameter and isolation (or insulation?). If you just use a coil body= that is on hand and start winding=2C you may find the residual L is much t= o low and then you come out with 3 coils in series which will be a huge con= struction in very inefficient. You should also leave some distance to groun= d=2C to prevent losses into the soil. A distance equal to the coil diameter= is fine.
How will you manage the high voltages on the antenna? You will= have to manage 50 kV rms or so.

For me=2C the situation is not as = easy. I must not leave the coil its position permanenty. I have to remove i= t after the experiment. But that's not so dramatic. I can leave it into the= building and we have an elevator...
Keep us informed by some photos :-)=

73=2C Stefan/DK7FC


Am 26.12.2013 18:58=2C schrieb Bob Ra= ide:

Stefan=3B
If I =3Bgo to VLF I am going = to add to my existing inductance outside. =3B I plan to make a box usin= g "plexiglass" quarter inch thick with glued seams so is weather proof.&nbs= p=3B It will be clear [no color] and is very good dielectric. =3B I was= going to ask you how much clearance I need and 30 =3Bcm is about 1 foo= t or 12 inches clearance around the coil. =3B Leave air gap around bott= om so air can circulate so you don't build up moisture. =3B Small muffi= n fan with shroud to pull fresh air up and around coil and out.
Could ev= en use clear vinyl material =3B.025 thick and =3Ba =3Bclear vin= yl box over =3Ba plastic pipe frame would be cheaper. =3B Clear vin= yl used for side curtains on boats-etc.
I am in sewing business [make b= oat and truck covers] so could make you cover and you build the frame-I shi= p clear vinyl cover UPS to you or you could have local canvas company make = it. =3B Use "RTV" over stitches to make water tight-Bob
 =3B

Date: Thu=2C 26 Dec 2013 18:32:43 +0100
From: Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelbe= rg.de
To: rsgb_lf_gr= oup@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: VLF: 8969.99

Hi Bob=2C
Of course=2C if the coil is protected against rain=2C then it is no probl= em. But the coil is quite large and due to the high voltage=2C the housing = should ideally have a distance of 30cm or more to the coil. So the housing = must be quite large=2C even more. And that makes it dangerous because of wi= nd blasts on the to of the building in 35m AGL...
Anyway it would be ni= ce and i also thought about using a simple foil across the coil=2C without = additional distance.
However on LF=2C there are partial discharges on t= he top of the coil which burns holes into the protecting foil. And the VLF = winding is 2000m long. It is a lot of effort to repair it after a short cut= between some turns due to arcing. So it is a high risk.
I think i will= make a test in the near future and see if 9 kHz partial discharges are as = agressive as 137 kHz partial discharges :-)
73=2C Stefan/DK7FC

Am= 26.12.2013 16:32=2C schrieb Bob Raide:

Stefan=3BEven if you have your coils in weather proof housing rain is no good to t= ransmit on 9 kHz? Bob
 =3B

Date: Thu=2C 26 Dec 2013 1= 3:55:11 +0100
From: Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re:= VLF: 8969.99

Hi Uwe=2C Tom=2C VLF=2C

Best signal ever from T= om=2C capture attached. Is it due to the propagation or did it improve your= signal?
What about some tests in OPDS32 or maybe JT9-30? Unfortunately = there is permanent rain here so i have to wait some days longer.

73= =2C Stefan/DK7FC

=
= --_2b35f9f0-1f18-43df-8605-326ef0cae5f5_--