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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id lp10si2424632wjb.12.2013.12.14.09.34.45 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 09:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; dkim=pass header.i=@mx.aol.com Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1VrqkX-0002Uf-P4 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 15:03:25 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1VrqkX-0002UW-5p for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 15:03:25 +0000 Received: from omr-d02.mx.aol.com ([205.188.109.194]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1VrqkU-0000Gl-72 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 15:03:24 +0000 Received: from mtaout-da05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-da05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.133]) by omr-d02.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 4EA9D701891DA; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 10:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from White (95-91-238-155-dynip.superkabel.de [95.91.238.155]) by mtaout-da05.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPA id 3DFB5E0000A3; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 10:03:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6514E2CA89B64F1BB9851B892A35C91A@White> From: "Markus Vester" To: , "Bob Raide" References: Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:03:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 12.0.1606 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V12.0.1606 x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1387033399; bh=Ue6Zo7wWYt6vx/uOphGte78HidpkG4yqJzo2Fv8yeZM=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=nlLCIAFWzLgz71qBozcf9107Yl9IIDexqDnUy39S4DgA78PVEgF/DSB4FBSWurbB/ t1C9/rWp5iTC3mgkhlnRnm7j/T91hCQP+SLuJMW9uTw6ptX+GXNk1wq7mbIKI+7tVf 2mz4j3iiu3/oykmhbq7gbHaP0iCt4zXKXjQ6n52o= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d338552ac733462ac X-AOL-IP: 95.91.238.155 X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hmmm - capturing Bob's WSPR is a bit like crossing a four lane highway by foot: Once you've managed to find a gap between the DCF trails, you'll be hit by a Loran line on the next track... Glad to see that Joe DF2JP managed to get some decodes, probably for the first time. His capture shows significant DCF77 "junk", the effect of which we have apparently reduced successfully. [...] Content analysis details: (0.6 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [205.188.109.194 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (markusvester[at]aol.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.4 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid 1.0 FREEMAIL_REPLY From and body contain different freemails X-Scan-Signature: 070d9ab39265047b7fb462cd62854f10 Subject: Re: LF: All 73 Banders... Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01CEF8E5.FE12D790" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2161 Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CEF8E5.FE12D790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmmm - capturing Bob's WSPR is a bit like crossing a four lane highway = by foot: Once you've managed to find a gap between the DCF trails, = you'll be hit by a Loran line on the next track... Glad to see that Joe DF2JP managed to get some decodes, probably for the = first time. His capture shows significant DCF77 "junk", the effect of = which we have apparently reduced successfully.=20 Around midnight there were also some meager traces here, but simply not = enough SNR to decode. I have marked the four tones with 0.1831 Hz = spacing with green arrow heads on = http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/df6nm_74kHz_131214_0200_arrow= heads.png Unfortunately 74612 Hz would not be good here. It's however strange that Hartmut and Victor didn't get any decodes, = even though the signal seemed to be well visible for both. What looks = like noise on Victor's capture must really be the WSPR-15 spectrum:=20 = http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/pa3fny_74603_131214_0700_arro= wheads.jpg But both statiopns have a relatively strong Loran line, and Hartmut's = directional antenna is pointing towards Sylt. However the nearby line = frequency 74603.280 Hz should have been well outside the occupied = spectrum of Bob's WSPR signal (74603.51 to 604.24), so it's not ovbvious = why it should have prevented decodes. I'm speculating that the WSPR = software finds the strong line, tries to sync to it, and then somehow = excludes nearby real signals from further decode attempts. To prove the = point and see how much spacing is needed, we could experiment with = letting WSPR decode local audio signals in the presence of injected = carriers. But systematic trials with WSPR tend to be time-consuming, = even if such tests were accelerated by scaling to WSPR-2. As Bob says, the best solution would be to move further out, avoiding = the DCF77 sideband lobes alltogether: = http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/74kHz_spectrum_investigation_= df6nm_131214.png shows different parts of the spectrum in detail. My idea would be to = move down by 300 Hz, ie 72.7 kHz dial and 74.300 to 74.325 kHz RF for = WSPR-15. In that range, DCF noise is so weak that we would only neeed to = avoid the more widely spaced Loran lines. I have listed and sorted the = relevant GRI harmonics at = http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/Eu_Loran_frequencies_74300-74= 325Hz.png = http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/Eu_Loran_frequencies_74300-74= 325Hz.txt but note that emitted levels are variable, and not every line will = really be strong enough to cause interference. Thus my suggestion would be to go to 72.7 kHz dial, and Bob sending on = either 74304 or 74321 Hz. Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) From: Bob Raide=20 Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 8:41 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; Bob Raide=20 Subject: LF: All 73 Banders... I am authorized 68-76 kHz. There must be clear freqs somewhere in that = spectrum? Let me know what most would like to try in UK/Europe-Bob = WG2XRS/4 NY [WG4XRS for WSPR modes] ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CEF8E5.FE12D790 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hmmm - capturing Bob's WSPR is a bit = like crossing=20 a four lane highway by foot: Once you've managed to find a gap between = the DCF=20 trails, you'll be hit by a Loran line on the next track...
 
Glad to see that Joe DF2JP managed to = get some=20 decodes, probably for the first time. His capture shows significant = DCF77=20 "junk", the effect of which we have apparently reduced successfully.=20
 
Around midnight there were also some = meager traces=20 here, but simply not enough SNR to decode. I have marked the four tones = with=20 0.1831 Hz spacing with green arrow heads on
 http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/df6nm_74kH= z_131214_0200_arrowheads.png
Unfortunately=20 74612 Hz would not be good here.
 
It's however strange that Hartmut and = Victor didn't=20 get any decodes, even though the signal seemed to be well visible for = both. What=20 looks like noise on Victor's capture must really be the WSPR-15 = spectrum:=20
 http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/pa3fny_74= 603_131214_0700_arrowheads.jpg

But both statiopns have a = relatively strong=20 Loran line, and Hartmut's directional antenna is pointing towards Sylt. = However=20 the nearby line frequency 74603.280 Hz should have been well outside the = occupied spectrum of Bob's WSPR signal (74603.51 to 604.24), so it's not = ovbvious why it should have prevented decodes. I'm speculating that the = WSPR=20 software finds the strong line, tries to sync to it, and then somehow = excludes=20 nearby real signals from further decode attempts. To prove the point and = see how=20 much spacing is needed, we could experiment with letting WSPR decode = local audio=20 signals in the presence of injected carriers. But systematic trials with = WSPR=20 tend to be time-consuming, even if such tests were accelerated by = scaling to=20 WSPR-2.
 
As Bob says, the best solution would be = to move=20 further out, avoiding the DCF77 sideband lobes alltogether:
 http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/74k= Hz_spectrum_investigation_df6nm_131214.png
shows=20 different parts of the spectrum in detail. My idea would be to move down = by 300=20 Hz, ie 72.7 kHz dial and 74.300 to 74.325 kHz RF for WSPR-15. In that = range, DCF=20 noise is so weak that we would only neeed to avoid the more widely = spaced Loran=20 lines. I have listed and sorted the relevant GRI harmonics = at
 http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/Eu_Loran_f= requencies_74300-74325Hz.png
 http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/Eu_Loran_f= requencies_74300-74325Hz.txt
but=20 note that emitted levels are variable, and not every line will really be = strong=20 enough to cause interference.
 
Thus my suggestion would be to go to = 72.7=20 kHz dial, and Bob sending on either 74304 or=20 74321 Hz.
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 
 

From: Bob Raide
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 8:41 AM
Subject: LF: All 73 Banders...

I am authorized 68-76 kHz.  There must be clear = freqs=20 somewhere in that spectrum?  Let me know what most would like to = try in=20 UK/Europe-Bob WG2XRS/4 NY [WG4XRS for WSPR modes]
 
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