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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id dd1si3998864wjc.24.2013.11.16.15.28.01 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 15:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Vhoob-00025s-Mi for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 22:58:09 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Vhooa-00025j-Tw for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 22:58:08 +0000 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de ([129.206.100.212]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1VhooY-00066t-Eq for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 22:58:07 +0000 Received: from freitag.iup.uni-heidelberg.de (freitag.iup.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.29.204]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id rAGMw5ao002364 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 23:58:05 +0100 Received: from [129.206.22.206] (pc206.iup.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.22.206]) by freitag.iup.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.11.20060308/8.11.2) with ESMTP id rAGMw5fI027420 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 23:58:05 +0100 Message-ID: <5287F878.3030107@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 23:58:00 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Stefan_Sch=E4fer?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi all, Wonderful. I really didn't expect such results from a 1m diameter indoor TX loop.! So far (best reports): Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az 2013-11-16 22:14 DK7FC 0.475683 -27 0 JN49ik 1 PA0A JO33de 449 339 2013-11-16 20:20 DK7FC 0.475679 -28 0 JN49ik 1 PA3FNY JO22nc 389 321 2013-11-16 20:32 DK7FC 0.475685 -29 0 JN49ik 1 PI4THT JO32kf 336 338 2013-11-16 22:26 DK7FC 0.475683 -19 0 JN49ik 1 DL4RAJ JN68kj 326 109 2013-11-16 20:34 DK7FC 0.475684 -25 0 JN49ik 1 DL1DBC JO41bi 217 349 2013-11-16 21:10 DK7FC 0.475682 -17 0 JN49ik 1 DF8UO JN48ex 56 206 2013-11-16 20:40 DK7FC 0.475690 -26 0 JN49ik 1 DK6UG JN49cm 37 285 [...] Content analysis details: (-0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [129.206.100.212 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 882bdeb3d60c37e569eb1f790f5c4a0f Subject: Re: LF: RE: A /p 630m transmit loop (?) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060402070908020305090003" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2645 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060402070908020305090003 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by relay.uni-heidelberg.de id rAGMw5ao002364 Hi all, Wonderful. I really didn't expect such results from a 1m diameter indoor=20 TX loop.! So far (best reports): Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az 2013-11-16 22:14 DK7FC 0.475683 -27 0 JN49ik 1 PA0A=20 JO33de 449 339 2013-11-16 20:20 DK7FC 0.475679 -28 0 JN49ik 1 PA3FNY=20 JO22nc 389 321 2013-11-16 20:32 DK7FC 0.475685 -29 0 JN49ik 1 PI4THT=20 JO32kf 336 338 2013-11-16 22:26 DK7FC 0.475683 -19 0 JN49ik 1 DL4RAJ=20 JN68kj 326 109 2013-11-16 20:34 DK7FC 0.475684 -25 0 JN49ik 1 DL1DBC=20 JO41bi 217 349 2013-11-16 21:10 DK7FC 0.475682 -17 0 JN49ik 1 DF8UO=20 JN48ex 56 206 2013-11-16 20:40 DK7FC 0.475690 -26 0 JN49ik 1 DK6UG=20 JN49cm 37 285 Thanks to the reporters. The PA consumes about 2A at 13.8V. The capacitors are warm and were=20 drifting until there was a steady state of temperature and antenna=20 current. They are abouut 20 C above the ambient temperature. These=20 losses must come mostly from their legs (no snubber caps). It could be=20 useful to remove the 22nF caps and only use 6.8 nF caps so the current=20 is spread and the losses fall a bit more, until i reach the voltage=20 limit of the caps which means another 6 dB of signal... Will see... Now i turned the loop a bit more to NNE, pointing to DL-SWL. But i=20 assume he has a directional antenna pointing to the US... 73, Stefan/DK7FC Am 16.11.2013 20:50, schrieb Dave G3WCB.: > Stefan, > > I think that G4KPX was using a 1m indoor loop at one time. I'm copying = him > right now on WSPR, but I don't know if he is still using the loop, or > something different. > > Quote from an e-mail on 13th Jan by G3XBM below:- > > "Another local G4KPX is using 1W RF into a 1m diameter loop indoors and > getting reports from decent distances. He is a good signal with me. Ama= zing. > His ERP is a lot less than 100uW." > > 73, Dave G3WCB IO91RM > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Stefan Sch=E4fe= r > Sent: 16 November 2013 19:35 > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: LF: A /p 630m transmit loop (?) > > > Hi MF, > > I've played a bit arround with my 1m diameter loop (copper, 18mm > diameter x 1mm). Last year i used it as a receive loop. Today i asked > myselfe what distance could be made with such a loop when transmitting > on MF WSPR, indoors! > > For LF i needed 501 nF to resonate it to 137 kHz and a ferrite core wit= h > the primary turn across the capacitor. Primary way 29 turns and > secondary (matched to 50 Ohm!) was 10 turns. > > Now for MF i just need 40.5 nF to resonate it to 475.7 kHz and a ferrit= e > transformer arround the copper tube (=3D1 turn primary) and 35 turns on > the transmitter side to match it to about 50 Ohm. > > Photos: > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19882028/MF/MF%20TX%20loop%20all.jp= g > and > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19882028/MF/MF%20TX%20loop%20zoom.j= pg > > I thought this way (tube through the ferrite transformer, i.e. a single > turn on one side) is better because here, when TXing, the voltage acros= s > the C will be very high and will be the limiting factor for the system. > Later i found that it actually is the current which warms up the > capacitors. The voltage in a steady state is just about 300 V rms. So > the antenna current must be 36 A. In that case, the TX power is in the > range of 30W, so it's quite QRP (for me) :-) > > Of course i do not expect much. Any detection in WSPR-2 outside the nea= r > field will make me happy for this test. > > So, while TXing WSPR-15 on LF here at work this night, i will carry the > antenna and my small PA + equipment to my home QTH in JN49IJ, which is = a > distance of 0.95 km, even more than 1 Lambda ;-) Depending on the > results i will TX through the night, beaming to NW/SE (G, PA) or WSW/NN= E > (F). > > Reports apprechiated! > > 73, Stefan/DK7FC > > > PS: This is the fun of practical amateur radio work: I'm looking forwar= d > to the results and still don't know them. Some others would read some > papers, calculate the ERP , estimate the distance and then go back to T= V :-) > > > > > =20 --------------060402070908020305090003 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by relay.uni-heidelberg.de id rAGMw5ao002364 Hi all,

Wonderful. I really didn't expect such results from a 1m diameter indoor TX loop.!
So far (best reports):

Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az
=A02013-11-16 22:14=A0 =A0DK7FC=A0 =A00.475683=A0 =A0-27=A0 =A00=A0 =A0JN49ik=A0 =A01=A0 =A0PA0A=A0 =A0JO33de=A0 =A0449=A0 =A0339=A0
=A02013-11-16 20:20=A0 =A0DK7FC=A0 =A00.475679=A0 =A0-28=A0 =A00=A0 =A0JN49ik=A0 =A01=A0 =A0PA3FNY=A0 =A0JO22nc=A0 =A0389=A0 =A0321=A0
=A02013-11-16 20:32=A0 =A0DK7FC=A0 =A00.475685=A0 =A0-29=A0 =A00=A0 =A0JN49ik=A0 =A01=A0 =A0PI4THT=A0 =A0JO32kf=A0 =A0336=A0 =A0338=A0
=A02013-11-16 22:26=A0 =A0DK7FC=A0 =A00.475683=A0 =A0-19=A0 =A00=A0 =A0JN49ik=A0 =A01=A0 =A0DL4RAJ=A0 =A0JN68kj=A0 =A0326=A0 =A0109=A0
=A02013-11-16 20:34=A0 =A0DK7FC=A0 =A00.475684=A0 =A0-25=A0 =A00=A0 =A0JN49ik=A0 =A01=A0 =A0DL1DBC=A0 =A0JO41bi=A0 =A0217=A0 =A0349=A0
=A02013-11-16 21:10=A0 =A0DK7FC=A0 =A00.475682=A0 =A0-17=A0 =A00=A0 =A0JN49ik=A0 =A01=A0 =A0DF8UO=A0 =A0JN48ex=A0 =A056=A0 =A0206=A0
=A02013-11-16 20:40=A0 =A0DK7FC=A0 =A00.475690=A0 =A0-26=A0 =A00=A0 =A0JN49ik=A0 =A01=A0 =A0DK6UG=A0 =A0JN49cm=A0 =A037=A0 =A0285=A0

Thanks to the reporters.

The PA consumes about 2A at 13.8V. The capacitors are warm and were drifting until there was a steady state of temperature and antenna current. They are abouut 20 C above the ambient temperature. These losses must come mostly from their legs (no snubber caps). It could be useful to remove the 22nF caps and only use 6.8 nF caps so the current is spread and the losses fall a bit more, until i reach the voltage limit of the caps which means another 6 dB of signal... Will see...

Now i turned the loop a bit more to=A0 NNE, pointing to DL-SWL. But i assume he has a directional antenna pointing to the US...

73, Stefan/DK7FC



Am 16.11.2013 20:50, schrieb Dave G3WCB.: 
Stefan,

I think that G4KPX was using a 1m indoor loop at one time. I'm copying hi=
m
right now on WSPR, but I don't know if he is still using the loop, or
something different.

Quote from an e-mail on 13th Jan by G3XBM below:-

"Another local G4KPX is using 1W RF into a 1m diameter loop indoors and
getting reports from decent distances. He is a good signal with me. Amazi=
ng.
His ERP is a lot less than 100uW."

73, Dave G3WCB IO91RM

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of =
Stefan Sch=E4fer
Sent: 16 November 2013 19:35
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: A /p 630m transmit loop (?)


Hi MF,

I've played a bit arround with my 1m diameter loop (copper, 18mm
diameter x 1mm). Last year i used it as a receive loop. Today i asked
myselfe what distance could be made with such a loop when transmitting
on MF WSPR, indoors!

For LF i needed 501 nF to resonate it to 137 kHz and a ferrite core with
the primary turn across the capacitor. Primary way 29 turns and
secondary (matched to 50 Ohm!) was 10 turns.

Now for MF i just need 40.5 nF to resonate it to 475.7 kHz and a ferrite
transformer arround the copper tube (=3D1 turn primary) and 35 turns on
the transmitter side to match it to about 50 Ohm.

Photos:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent=
.com/u/19882028/MF/MF%20TX%20loop%20all.jpg
and
https://dl.dropboxuserconten=
t.com/u/19882028/MF/MF%20TX%20loop%20zoom.jpg

I thought this way (tube through the ferrite transformer, i.e. a single
turn on one side) is better because here, when TXing, the voltage across
the C will be very high and will be the limiting factor for the system.
Later i found that it actually is the current which warms up the
capacitors. The voltage in a steady state is just about 300 V rms. So
the antenna current must be 36 A. In that case, the TX power is in the
range of 30W, so it's quite QRP (for me) :-)

Of course i do not expect much. Any detection in WSPR-2 outside the near
field will make me happy for this test.

So, while TXing WSPR-15 on LF here at work this night, i will carry the
antenna and my small PA + equipment to my home QTH in JN49IJ, which is a
distance of  0.95 km, even more than 1 Lambda ;-) Depending on the
results i will TX through the night, beaming to NW/SE (G, PA) or WSW/NNE
(F).

Reports apprechiated!

73, Stefan/DK7FC


PS: This is the fun of practical amateur radio work: I'm looking forward
to the results and still don't know them. Some others would read some
papers, calculate the ERP , estimate the distance and then go back to TV =
:-)
--------------060402070908020305090003--