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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id jl3si2026085lbc.129.2013.10.18.15.51.41 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 15:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; dkim=pass header.i=@mx.aol.com Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1VXIsQ-0001TL-Oe for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 23:50:38 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1VXIsQ-0001TC-2T for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 23:50:38 +0100 Received: from omr-d08.mx.aol.com ([205.188.109.207]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1VXIsM-0001pt-NB for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 23:50:36 +0100 Received: from mtaout-db01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-db01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.193]) by omr-d08.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id C68F9700028C2 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from White (95-91-237-85-dynip.superkabel.de [95.91.237.85]) by mtaout-db01.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPA id A9F2AE0000AF for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: "Markus Vester" To: References: <000701cecb29$d06ee7f0$6401a8c0@JAYDELL> <525FCC72.3080506@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <002001cecb35$90568ea0$6d01a8c0@DELL4> <525FFA57.1020001@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <525FFAD3.2000406@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <005401cecb51$fb859bf0$6d01a8c0@DELL4> <52608759.1070509@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <526090AA.20402@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <003101cecbab$78a2e2b0$6401a8c0@JAYDELL> <52611614.7090703@charter.net> <52612B46.4020701@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <5261B880.5090903@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 00:50:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 12.0.1606 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V12.0.1606 x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1382136632; bh=ZTfk9hZtaX/P8hFrfC5ifVdDB0vArJ+LIhK4uB2uPJY=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=a567de6blAhwam1VGhy566yJfmp3FKja4iz8AJJ19BRo0kNZeWhY/GPVwkoYN21Y0 ci2BZcIyTWtPRg60dtPhJ0unyoH6mbk7euXU7Dki5lzAOXHGN6beamatfIuIBP+AFw zKcUVfHsTQh2F+D+9gTZmn9P0JpjYf8E2U2i41nU= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c15261bb355fb1 X-AOL-IP: 95.91.237.85 X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Stefan, thanks for the flowers. WSPR correlation? In principle, yes, but... http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/rsgb_lf_group/message/3207 Good to see you on air! Opds has identified your signal already: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/DETECTED.TXT http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/opds.jpg [...] Content analysis details: (-0.4 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [205.188.109.207 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (markusvester[at]aol.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.4 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: ae3221d431bd19e5880aa98eda07ece4 Subject: Re: LF: T/A OPDS DK7FC Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01CECC65.33F96A70" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3041 Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01CECC65.33F96A70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stefan, thanks for the flowers.=20 WSPR correlation? In principle, yes, but... http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/rsgb_lf_group/message/3207 Good to see you on air! Opds has identified your signal already: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/DETECTED.TXT http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/opds.jpg 73 and good luck, Markus From: Stefan Sch=E4fer=20 Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 12:38 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: T/A OPDS DK7FC Markus,=20 Wow, somehow genial! Where did you learn to make such a program? Thanks = for the explanations. What is the next challenge? WSPRDS?? Isn't it possible to correlate WSPR = signals as well? 73, Stefan, on air now! Am 18.10.2013 17:41, schrieb Markus Vester:=20 Stefan, Jay, John, the "96%" number shows the temporal overlap between the receive period = (ie the duration of the currently used FFT, about 35 minutes) and the = identified Op sequence (33 minutes). With 10 minutes spacing between = subsequent FFTs, the sequence does not always fit completely into one of = the slots. so it says that 96% of the sequence was included in the = evaluation. However the missing part has only neglegible impact on the = detection sensitivity. Ideally Opera can be treated as an AM signal, with a central carrier = and modulation sidebands around it. The "2mHz" bandwidth figure refers = to the bandwidth of the carrier, which should be as small as possible. = Opds applies some smoothing to the power spectrum and then tries to = measure the -10 dB bandwidth of the central peak. Stable and phase = coherent signals consistently show less than 3 mHz bandwidth. An = intermediate width up to about 30 mHz typically indicates a coherent = signal but with a slight thermal drift. Even higher bandwidth (~ 100 = mHz) are mostly due to incoherent keying, ie random phase dashes caused = by stopping the TX oscillator or divider during gaps.=20 Opds internally uses an "autofocus" concept similar to synchroneous = demodulation, where the central spectral peak is used as a phase = reference. Narrower carriers produce better demodulated SNR. For fading = or incoherent signals, the phase has to be tracked faster or even on a = dash-by-dash basis, which is much less efficient. The "dBOp" column is showing SNR according to Jos=E9's Opera scale, = which is approximately based on average power. It shows 4 dB more = negative values than the standard WSPR scale, ie. carrier power in 2.5 = kHz. A marginally decode with WSPR-15 would need -38 dB, and an Opera = signal with same PEP would then show as -42 dBOp. For a coherent signal, = the Opds-32 threshold should be around -50 dBOp, which in theory is 8 dB = better than WSPR-15 and 11 dB better than standard Opera-32. Please be aware that the SNR figures shown in opds results can = sometimes be inaccurate. With an incoherent signal, often not all of the = carrier power is captured during the bandwidth measurement, producing a = low or invalid SNR reading. The SNR measurement also doesn't work well = for strong signals (> -20 dBOp), eg for DK7FC who should really be plus = several dB here. So why was Stefan's TA signal not stronger last night? My guess is = that TA propagation just didn't extend into central Europe: While UK and = duch stations received Bob well on 74 kHz, little or nothing at all = apperared on Hartmut's and my 74 kHz grabbers. Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) PS The weather has improved here, so I have put out the TX antenna for = a possible joint TA session tonight. From: Stefan Sch=E4fer=20 Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 2:36 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: T/A OPDS DK7FC Hi John, Jay, Markus, OK. Well, it seems to work. But i can't value the results. Why is it = only 96% and what is the meaning of 2 mHz here? Seems the S/N is rather low. Condx must have been poor. Were there other reports from US stns? 73, Stefan/DK7FC Am 18.10.2013 13:05, schrieb John Andrews: Stefan, Markus, Jay, Results from last night: 2013-10-18 05:09:25 DK7FC 5981km 137560.016Hz 2mHz -42.8dBOp 96% = 20.6dB 2013-10-18 04:29:25 DK7FC 5981km 137560.016Hz 2mHz -44.8dBOp 96% = 17.8dB 2013-10-18 03:49:23 DK7FC 5981km 137560.016Hz 2mHz -44.0dBOp 96% = 20.3dB 2013-10-18 03:09:23 DK7FC 5981km 137560.017Hz 2mHz -43.7dBOp 96% = 19.0dB 2013-10-18 02:29:23 DK7FC 5981km 137560.016Hz 3mHz -47.5dBOp 96% = 17.9dB 2013-10-18 01:49:23 DK7FC 5981km 137560.016Hz 3mHz -46.4dBOp 80% = 16.8dB John, W1TAG ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01CECC65.33F96A70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stefan, thanks for=20 the flowers.
 
WSPR correlation? In principle, yes,=20 but...
http= ://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/rsgb_lf_group/message/3207
 
Good to see you on = air! Opds has=20 identified your signal already:
http://= dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/DETECTED.TXT
http://dl.d= ropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/opds.jpg
 
73 and good luck,
Markus
From: Stefan = Sch=E4fer
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: LF: T/A OPDS DK7FC

Markus,

Wow, somehow genial! Where did = you learn=20 to make such a program? Thanks for the explanations.

What is the = next=20 challenge? WSPRDS?? Isn't it possible to correlate WSPR signals as=20 well?

73, Stefan, on air now!

Am 18.10.2013 17:41, schrieb = Markus=20 Vester:=20
Stefan, Jay, John,
 
the "96%" number shows the temporal = overlap=20 between the receive period (ie the duration of the currently=20 used FFT, about 35 minutes) and the identified Op sequence = (33=20 minutes). With 10 minutes spacing between subsequent FFTs, the = sequence=20 does not always fit completely into one of the slots. so it says = that 96%=20 of the sequence was included in the evaluation. However the missing=20 part has only neglegible impact on the detection=20 sensitivity.
 
Ideally Opera can be = treated as an AM=20 signal, with a central carrier and modulation sidebands around it. The = "2mHz"=20 bandwidth figure refers to the bandwidth of the carrier, which should = be as=20 small as possible. Opds applies some smoothing to the power spectrum = and then=20 tries to measure the -10 dB bandwidth of the central peak. = Stable and=20 phase coherent signals consistently show less than 3 mHz bandwidth. An = intermediate width up to about 30 mHz typically indicates a = coherent=20 signal but with a slight thermal drift. Even higher bandwidth (~ = 100 mHz)=20 are mostly due to incoherent keying, ie random phase dashes = caused=20 by stopping the TX oscillator or divider during gaps.
 
Opds internally uses an "autofocus" = concept=20 similar to synchroneous demodulation, where the central spectral peak = is used=20 as a phase reference. Narrower carriers produce better=20 demodulated SNR. For fading or incoherent signals, the phase has to be = tracked=20 faster or even on a dash-by-dash basis, which is much less=20 efficient.
 
The "dBOp" column is showing SNR = according to=20 Jos=E9's Opera scale, which is approximately based on average power. = It shows 4=20 dB more negative values than the standard WSPR scale, ie. carrier = power in 2.5=20 kHz. A marginally decode with WSPR-15 would need -38 dB, and an = Opera=20 signal with same PEP would then show as -42 dBOp. For a coherent = signal, the=20 Opds-32 threshold should be around -50 dBOp, which in theory is 8 = dB=20 better than WSPR-15 and 11 dB better than standard = Opera-32.
 
Please be aware that the SNR figures = shown in=20 opds results can sometimes be inaccurate. With an incoherent=20 signal, often not all of the carrier power is captured during the = bandwidth measurement, producing a low or invalid SNR=20 reading. The SNR measurement also doesn't work well for = strong=20 signals (> -20 dBOp), eg for DK7FC who should really be plus = several dB=20 here.
 
So why was Stefan's TA signal not = stronger last=20 night? My guess is that TA propagation just didn't = extend into=20 central Europe: While UK and duch stations received Bob well on 74 = kHz, little=20 or nothing at all apperared on Hartmut's and my 74 kHz=20 grabbers.
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 
PS The weather has improved = here,=20 so I have put out the TX antenna for a possible joint TA session=20 tonight.
 

Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: LF: T/A OPDS DK7FC

Hi John, Jay, Markus,

OK. Well, it seems to work. But i = can't=20 value the results. Why is it only 96% and what is the meaning of 2 mHz = here?
Seems the S/N is rather low. Condx must have been = poor.
Were there=20 other reports from US stns?

73, Stefan/DK7FC

Am = 18.10.2013=20 13:05, schrieb John Andrews:
Stefan, Markus, Jay,

Results = from last=20 night:

2013-10-18 05:09:25 DK7FC   5981km=20 137560.016Hz   2mHz -42.8dBOp  96% 20.6dB
2013-10-18 = 04:29:25 DK7FC   5981km 137560.016Hz   2mHz=20 -44.8dBOp  96% 17.8dB
2013-10-18 03:49:23 = DK7FC  =20 5981km 137560.016Hz   2mHz -44.0dBOp =20 96% 20.3dB
2013-10-18 03:09:23 DK7FC   5981km=20 137560.017Hz   2mHz -43.7dBOp  = 96% 19.0dB
2013-10-18=20 02:29:23 DK7FC   5981km 137560.016Hz   3mHz=20 -47.5dBOp  96% 17.9dB
2013-10-18 01:49:23 = DK7FC  =20 5981km 137560.016Hz   3mHz -46.4dBOp  = 80% 16.8dB
John, W1TAG

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