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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id gm6si2296939wib.47.1969.12.31.16.00.00; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 15:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1VR7oA-0001DA-7k for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 22:48:42 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1VR7o9-0001D1-AI for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 22:48:41 +0100 Received: from blu0-omc1-s8.blu0.hotmail.com ([65.55.116.19]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1VR7o4-0007n1-UE for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 22:48:40 +0100 Received: from BLU180-W81 ([65.55.116.7]) by blu0-omc1-s8.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 1 Oct 2013 14:48:35 -0700 X-TMN: [fsp7wRfRup43J8Ap/2pX3oHJPu5UgR0Q] X-Originating-Email: [rjraide@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: Bob Raide To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 17:48:34 -0400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: <524999E7.3030001@gmx.de> <514630078B86410FB0CE8027D1FFFC0A@White> <9363034814A447E6B8CDFA9ADD928A87@White>,<01880E2E348E4A908B97F2D7FB1587B9@White> , MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Oct 2013 21:48:35.0156 (UTC) FILETIME=[FA9FC940:01CEBEEF] X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Markus; I am not the one that has to rx it! Shoot Hartmut an email-I am sure you both can agree on something! From: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 23:32:58 +0200 Subject: Re: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 kHz Bob, [...] Content analysis details: (0.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [65.55.116.19 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (rjraide[at]hotmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.7 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 1.0 FREEMAIL_REPLY From and body contain different freemails X-Scan-Signature: 12ddde055c249ec996cb2564af355ff1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_8dc78bd7-8acc-419e-b475-77cdbb597afe_" Subject: RE: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 kHz X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1488 --_8dc78bd7-8acc-419e-b475-77cdbb597afe_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Markus=3B I am not the one that has to rx it! Shoot Hartmut an email-I am sure you b= oth can agree on something! =20 From: markusvester@aol.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Tue=2C 1 Oct 2013 23:32:58 +0200 Subject: Re: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 kHz =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Bob=2C=0A= =0A= yes sure=2C it's not my intention to persuade =0A= you or Dex or anyone else to QSY at this time. Its more a matter of just ge= tting =0A= aquainted with the new band's constraints and opportunities. =0A= Identifying common clear frequencies =0A= may become more valuable as we are (hopefully) =0A= approaching lower noise winter nights. DCF77 is probably more of a =0A= problem in this area around south/west DL=2C compared to the =0A= UK or elsewhere in Europe.=0A= =0A= Best of luck again=2C=0A= Markus (DF6NM)=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= From: Bob Raide =0A= Sent: Tuesday=2C October 01=2C 2013 10:42 PM=0A= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A= =0A= Subject: RE: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 kHz=0A= =0A= Markus=3B I would agree to the comment that you made regarding =0A= "way it is now=2C but" yes it seems to change night to night-there always = =0A= seems to be junk on the whole hz freqs but between them seems clear so far = for =0A= our operations. I noticed even on Hartmut's captures last night 74.549 had = =0A= "artifacts" present-weak but present and never saw or noticed them before w= ith =0A= his directional RX ant. But .2 hz higher was absolutely "junk" =0A= free. Bob=20 =20 =0A= =0A= =0A= From: markusvester@aol.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Tue=2C 1 =0A= Oct 2013 22:29:42 +0200 Subject: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 kHz =0A= =0A= =0A= Here's a slightly wider view of =0A= DCF77 "phasenoise" around 74.55 kHz http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2640= 4526/74k_131001_2001.png=0A= =0A= You can see some "sweet spots" around 74557=2C 74552 =0A= and 74540 Hz=2C wheras the vicinity of 74549 =0A= seems more affected. Not sure how much this pattern might evolve over longe= r =0A= periods of time=2C with changing BCD code bits for hour=2C day=2C month =0A= etc. =0A= =0A= The strong line on 74540 is =0A= a locally generated carrier to check frequency drift of my FiFi-SDR =0A= receiver.=0A= =0A= Best 73=2C=0A= Markus (DF6NM)=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= From: Markus =0A= Vester =0A= Sent: Tuesday=2C October 01=2C 2013 8:35 AM=0A= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A= =0A= Subject: Re: LF: 74.550kHz Sep 29/30=0A= =0A= Here are clearer shots of the DCF77 =0A= sidebands from the morning:=0A= http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/dcf77_prn_sidebands_131001_0605= .png=0A= http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/74k_131001_0600.png=0A= =0A= Notes:=0A= - the RX antenna is resonant around 75 kHz=2C =0A= which emphasizes the PRN sidebands below the DCF77 carrier. The fifth and = =0A= sixth lobe are still visible. In reality=2C the upper sidebands are slightl= y =0A= stronger. This is probably due to an offset (or a 75 kHz notch) in the =0A= transmitter antenna matching=2C which happens to help us now.=0A= - the Swiss time signal HBG =0A= on 75 kHz is no longer on air.=0A= - there is an RTTY signal at 73.6 kHz which =0A= could be CFH. =0A= - the 1 Hz lines are =0A= surrounded by a somewhat regular fine structure=2C consisting of 16.6 mHz = =0A= spaced sub-lines. This is probably due to parts of the BCD =0A= timecode and weather information data which are repeating or similar in =0A= consecutive minutes.=0A= =0A= Best 73=2C=0A= Markus (DF6NM)=0A= =0A= From: Markus =0A= Vester =0A= Sent: Monday=2C September 30=2C 2013 11:26 =0A= PM=0A= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A= =0A= Subject: Re: LF: 74.550kHz Sep =0A= 29/30=0A= =0A= Hi Bob=2C LF=2C=0A= =0A= last night my improvised grabber http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2640452= 6/df6nm_74kHz.jpg indeed showed weak and slightly fuzzy traces on both =0A= your QRG's=2C and on all other integer Hz frequencies as well. =0A= =0A= These are presumably artifacts from DCF77 which is =0A= only about 160 km from here. In addition to the well known =0A= AM timecode=2C it also carries pseudorandom phase modulation=2C =0A= which has been proposed in the 80ies to provide higher resolution timing = =0A= (albeit orders of magnitude worse than Loran or GPS). The resulting sideban= ds =0A= extend a couple of kHz on either side of the carrier=2C with pronounced min= ima =0A= around multiples of the chip rate 77500/120 =3D 645.833 Hz=2C see =0A= http://www.ptb.de/cms/fileadmin/internet/fachabteilungen/abteilung_4/4.4_ze= it_und_frequenz/pdf/5_1988_Hetzel_-_Proc_EFTF_88.pdf (page 358). The same c= ode sequence is repeated every =0A= second=2C so in theory the spectrum would consist of sharp 1 Hz spaced line= s. =0A= However=2C additionally the sign of the sequence is alternated with the =0A= disseminated timecode bits=2C producing some widening or "fuzzyness" of the= =0A= lines.=0A= =0A= Attached is a spectrogram which was taken =0A= tonight on the resonant antenna. Between statics=2C you can still =0A= see the fourth sideband lobe which is centered near 74.6 kHz. The =0A= spectral gaps are on =0A= 74916.666 Hz=2C =0A= 74270.833 Hz=2C =0A= 73625.000 Hz=2C =0A= with small and sharp central lines=2C presumably =0A= caused by slight inbalances or nonlinearities in the =0A= transmitter.=0A= =0A= By these criteria=2C if you have the choice I =0A= would recommend to operate somewhere near these gaps=2C but not exactly in = =0A= their middle=2C and also preferably not exactly on integer Hz =0A= frequencies =3B-)=0A= =0A= Best 73=2C=0A= Markus (DF6NM)=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= From: Bob Raide =0A= Sent: Monday=2C September 30=2C 2013 8:02 =0A= PM=0A= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A= =0A= Subject: RE: LF: 74.550kHz Sep =0A= 29/30=0A= =0A= Hartmut=3B You make it look =0A= easy!!!=20 That station on 74.548 is WG2XRS/5=2C Dex in South =0A= Carolina. I am sure you will see him when condx favor his area. Really =0A= great capture-this time I have my transmitter running correctly. I thought= =0A= I better drop down .1 hz as I was seeing sigs on .550 and .549 on Vester's = =0A= grabber but then remembered you have directional ant and the sigs come from= east =0A= of you and are not a problem. I can go to 74.549 from now on. Thanks =0A= for all your good work! Bob WG2XRS/4 NY =20 =0A= > Date: Mon=2C 30 Sep 2013 17:33.:59 =0A= +0200 > From: h-wolff@gmx.de > To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: LF: 74.550kHz Sep 29/30 > =0A= > Here are the captures taken last night: >=20 > =0A= https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/50178231/74550Hz-2013-09-30-QRSS60Scree= n.JPG > =0A= > =0A= https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/50178231/74550Hz-2013-09-30-QRSS120Scre= en.JPG > =0A= > XRS4 was just below 74.549 kHz and very faint traces of another station = =0A= > on 74.548. Only visible on the QRSS120Screen. >=20 > -- =0A= > 73 > Hartmut >=20 > =0A= = --_8dc78bd7-8acc-419e-b475-77cdbb597afe_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Markus=3B
I am not the one th= at has to rx it! =3B Shoot Hartmut an email-I am sure you both =3Bc= an =3Bagree on something!
 =3B
F= rom: markusvester@aol.com
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Tue= =2C 1 Oct 2013 23:32:58 +0200
Subject: Re: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 = kHz

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
Bob=2C
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
yes sure=2C it's not my intention = =3Bto persuade =0A= you or Dex or anyone else to QSY at this time. Its more a matter of just ge= tting =0A= aquainted with the new band's constraints and opportunities. =0A= Identifying =3Bcommon clear frequencies =0A= may =3Bbecome =3Bmore =3Bvaluable =3Bas we are =3B(hope= fully) =0A= approaching lower noise winter nights. DCF77 is probably more of a =0A= problem =3Bin this area around south/west =3BDL=2C =3Bcompared = to =3Bthe =0A= UK or elsewhere in Europe.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Best of luck again=2C
=0A=
Markus (DF6NM)
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
=0A=

=0A=
=0A=
From: Bob Raide
=0A=
Sent: Tuesday=2C October 01=2C 2013 10:42 PM
=0A= =0A=
Subject: RE: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 kHz
= =0A=

=0A=
Markus=3B
I would agree to the comment that you made re= garding =0A= "way it is now=2C but" =3B yes it seems to change night to night-there = always =0A= seems to be junk on the whole hz freqs but between them seems clear so far = for =0A= our operations. I noticed even on Hartmut's captures last night =3B74.5= 49 had =0A= "artifacts" present-weak but present and never saw or noticed them before w= ith =0A= his directional RX ant. =3B But .2 hz higher was absolutely "junk" =0A= free. =3BBob
 =3B
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= From: markusvester@aol.com
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Tue= =2C 1 =0A= Oct 2013 22:29:42 +0200
Subject: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 kHz
=0A= =0A= =0A=
Here's a slightly wider view of =0A= DCF77 =3B"phasenoise" =3Baround 74.55 kHz http://dl.dropboxusercontent.co= m/u/26404526/74k_131001_2001.png
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
You can see some "sweet spots" around = 74557=2C 74552 =0A= and =3B74540 Hz=2C wheras the vi= cinity of 74549 =0A= seems more affected. Not sure how much this pattern might evolve over longe= r =0A= periods of time=2C =3Bwith changing =3BBCD code bits for hour=2C da= y=2C month =0A= etc. =3B
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
The strong line =3Bon 74540 = =3Bis =0A= a =3Blocally generated carrier to check frequency drift of =3Bmy Fi= Fi-SDR =0A= receiver.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Best 73=2C
=0A=
Markus (DF6NM)
=0A=
=0A=

<= /div>=0A=
=0A= =0A=
Sent: Tuesday=2C October 01=2C 2013 8:35 AM
=0A= =0A=
Subject: Re: LF: 74.550kHz Sep 29/30
=0A=

=0A=
Here are clearer shots of the DCF77 = =0A= sidebands =3Bfrom the morning:
=0A= =0A= =0A=
=  =3B
=0A=
Notes:
=0A=
- the RX antenna is resonant =3Bar= ound 75 kHz=2C =0A= which emphasizes the =3BPRN sidebands below the DCF77 carrier. The fift= h and =0A= sixth =3Blobe are still visible. In reality=2C the upper sidebands are = slightly =0A= stronger. This is probably due to =3Ban offset (or a 75 kHz notch) in t= he =0A= transmitter antenna matching=2C which happens to =3Bhelp us now.=
=0A=
- the = Swiss time signal HBG =0A= on 75 kHz is no longer =3Bon air.
=0A=
- there is an RTTY signal at 73.6 kHz = which =0A= could =3Bbe CFH. =3B
=0A=
- the 1 Hz lines are =0A= surrounded =3Bby a somewhat regular fine structure=2C consisting of 16.= 6 mHz =0A= spaced sub-lines. This =3Bis probably due =3Bto =3Bparts of the=  =3BBCD =0A= timecode and =3Bweather information data which are repeating or similar= in =0A= consecutive minutes.
=0A=
=  =3B
=0A=
Best 73=2C
=0A=
Markus (DF6NM)
=0A=

=0A= =0A=
Sent: Monday=2C September= 30=2C 2013 11:26 =0A= PM
=0A= =0A=
Subject: Re: LF: 74.550kH= z Sep =0A= 29/30
=0A=

=0A=
Hi Bob=2C LF=2C
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
last night my improvised grabber = =3Bhttp://= dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/df6nm_74kHz.jpg indeed showed =3Bweak and slightly fuzzy traces = on both =0A= your QRG's=2C and on all other integer Hz frequencies as well. =0A=
 =3B
=0A=
These are presumably artifacts from DC= F77 which is =0A= only about 160 km from here. =3BIn addition to the well known =0A= AM =3Btimecode=2C it also =3Bcarries =3B =3Bpseudorandom ph= ase modulation=2C =0A= which has =3Bbeen proposed in the 80ies to provide higher resolution ti= ming =0A= (albeit orders of magnitude worse than Loran or GPS). The resulting sideban= ds =0A= extend a couple of kHz on either side of the carrier=2C with pronounced min= ima =0A= around multiples of the chip rate 77500/120 =3D 645.833 Hz=2C see =0A=
http://www.ptb.de/cms/fileadmin/internet/fachabteilungen/abteil= ung_4/4.4_zeit_und_frequenz/pdf/5_1988_Hetzel_-_Proc_EFTF_88.pdf=  =3B(page 358). The same code sequence = is repeated every =0A= second=2C so in theory the spectrum would consist of sharp 1 Hz spaced line= s. =0A= However=2C additionally the =3Bsign of the sequence is alternated with = the =0A= disseminated timecode bits=2C =3Bproducing some widening or "fuzzyness"= of the =0A= lines.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Attached is a spectrogram =3Bwhich= was =3Btaken =0A= tonight on =3Bthe resonant antenna. Between statics=2C =3Byou can&n= bsp=3Bstill =0A= see the =3Bfourth sideband lobe which is =3Bcentered near 74.6 kHz.= The =0A= spectral gaps are on =3B
= =0A=
 =3B74916.666 Hz=2C
= =0A=
 =3B74270.833 Hz=2C
= =0A=
 =3B73625.000 Hz=2C
<= /font>=0A=
with small and sharp central lines=2C = presumably =0A= caused by slight inbalances or nonlinearities =3Bin the =0A= transmitter.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
By these criteria=2C =3Bif you hav= e the choice I =0A= would recommend to operate somewhere =3Bnear these gaps=2C but not exac= tly in =0A= their middle=2C and also preferably not exactly on integer Hz =0A= frequencies =3B=3B-)
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Best 73=2C
=0A=
Markus (DF6NM)
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=

=0A=
From: Bob Raide=
=0A=
Sent: Monday=2C September= 30=2C 2013 8:02 =0A= PM
=0A= =0A=
Subject: RE: LF: 74.550kH= z Sep =0A= 29/30
=0A=

=0A=
Hartmut=3B
You make it = look =0A= easy!!! =3B
That =3Bstation on 74.548 is WG2XRS/5=2C Dex in Sout= h =0A= Carolina. =3B I am sure you will see him when condx favor his area.
= Really =0A= great capture-this time I have my transmitter running correctly. =3B I = thought =0A= I better drop down .1 hz as I was seeing sigs on .550 and .549 on Vester's = =0A= grabber but then remembered you have directional ant and the sigs come from= east =0A= of you and are not a problem. =3B I can go to 74.549 from now on.
Th= anks =0A= for all your good work! Bob =3B WG2XRS/4 NY
 =3B
=0A=
>=3B Date: Mon=2C 30 Sep= 2013 17:33.:59 =0A= +0200
>=3B From: h-wolff@gmx.de
>=3B To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>=3B Subject: LF: 74.550kHz Sep 29/30
= >=3B =0A=
>=3B Here are the captures taken last night:
>=3B
>=3B =0A= https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/50178231/74550Hz-2013-09-30-QRSS60Scree= n.JPG
>=3B =0A=
>=3B =0A= https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/50178231/74550Hz-2013-09-30-QRSS120Scre= en.JPG
>=3B =0A=
>=3B XRS4 was just below 74.549 kHz and very faint traces of another = station =0A=
>=3B on 74.548. Only visible on the QRSS120Screen.
>=3B
>= =3B -- =0A=
>=3B 73
>=3B Hartmut
>=3B
>=3B =0A=
= --_8dc78bd7-8acc-419e-b475-77cdbb597afe_--