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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: OPDS32 Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: Stefan Schäfer To: Friday, October 18, 2013 5:59 PM Subject: Re: LF: T/A OPDS DK7FC [...] Content analysis details: (-0.4 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [76.96.62.16 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jrusgrove[at]comcast.net) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.4 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 32f0c002d258ce351b2c37fe18ccfa3a Subject: Re: LF: T/A OPDS DK7FC Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01CECC2D.FA235FE0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3039 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01CECC2D.FA235FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit OPDS32 Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: Stefan Schäfer To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 5:59 PM Subject: Re: LF: T/A OPDS DK7FC Jay, John, LF, ...so it is another OPDS32 night? Or are you prepared for both, OPDS32 and OPDS8 ? 73, Stefan Am 18.10.2013 23:43, schrieb John Andrews: My setup is running, but I can't check or modify it until Saturday afternoon. John, W1TAG On Oct 18, 2013, at 5:31 PM, wrote: T/A OPDS enthusiasts It appears that I mistakenly ran with a known setup issue last night ... so my reported SNR numbers should not be considered accurate. The issue is now resolved and the setup is running. Hope to catch both Stefan and Markus tonight ... maybe VO1NA can be encouraged to join in as well. Have only received Joe's OPDS32 on one ocassion several weeks back. Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 WG2XRS/2 ----- Original Message ----- From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 11:41 AM Subject: Re: LF: T/A OPDS DK7FC Stefan, Jay, John, the "96%" number shows the temporal overlap between the receive period (ie the duration of the currently used FFT, about 35 minutes) and the identified Op sequence (33 minutes). With 10 minutes spacing between subsequent FFTs, the sequence does not always fit completely into one of the slots. so it says that 96% of the sequence was included in the evaluation. However the missing part has only neglegible impact on the detection sensitivity. Ideally Opera can be treated as an AM signal, with a central carrier and modulation sidebands around it. The "2mHz" bandwidth figure refers to the bandwidth of the carrier, which should be as small as possible. Opds applies some smoothing to the power spectrum and then tries to measure the -10 dB bandwidth of the central peak. Stable and phase coherent signals consistently show less than 3 mHz bandwidth. An intermediate width up to about 30 mHz typically indicates a coherent signal but with a slight thermal drift. Even higher bandwidth (~ 100 mHz) are mostly due to incoherent keying, ie random phase dashes caused by stopping the TX oscillator or divider during gaps. Opds internally uses an "autofocus" concept similar to synchroneous demodulation, where the central spectral peak is used as a phase reference. Narrower carriers produce better demodulated SNR. For fading or incoherent signals, the phase has to be tracked faster or even on a dash-by-dash basis, which is much less efficient. The "dBOp" column is showing SNR according to José's Opera scale, which is approximately based on average power. It shows 4 dB more negative values than the standard WSPR scale, ie. carrier power in 2.5 kHz. A marginally decode with WSPR-15 would need -38 dB, and an Opera signal with same PEP would then show as -42 dBOp. For a coherent signal, the Opds-32 threshold should be around -50 dBOp, which in theory is 8 dB better than WSPR-15 and 11 dB better than standard Opera-32. Please be aware that the SNR figures shown in opds results can sometimes be inaccurate. With an incoherent signal, often not all of the carrier power is captured during the bandwidth measurement, producing a low or invalid SNR reading. The SNR measurement also doesn't work well for strong signals (> -20 dBOp), eg for DK7FC who should really be plus several dB here. So why was Stefan's TA signal not stronger last night? My guess is that TA propagation just didn't extend into central Europe: While UK and duch stations received Bob well on 74 kHz, little or nothing at all apperared on Hartmut's and my 74 kHz grabbers. Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) PS The weather has improved here, so I have put out the TX antenna for a possible joint TA session tonight. From: Stefan Schäfer Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 2:36 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: T/A OPDS DK7FC Hi John, Jay, Markus, OK. Well, it seems to work. But i can't value the results. Why is it only 96% and what is the meaning of 2 mHz here? Seems the S/N is rather low. Condx must have been poor. Were there other reports from US stns? 73, Stefan/DK7FC Am 18.10.2013 13:05, schrieb John Andrews: Stefan, Markus, Jay, Results from last night: 2013-10-18 05:09:25 DK7FC 5981km 137560.016Hz 2mHz -42.8dBOp 96% 20.6dB 2013-10-18 04:29:25 DK7FC 5981km 137560.016Hz 2mHz -44.8dBOp 96% 17.8dB 2013-10-18 03:49:23 DK7FC 5981km 137560.016Hz 2mHz -44.0dBOp 96% 20.3dB 2013-10-18 03:09:23 DK7FC 5981km 137560.017Hz 2mHz -43.7dBOp 96% 19.0dB 2013-10-18 02:29:23 DK7FC 5981km 137560.016Hz 3mHz -47.5dBOp 96% 17.9dB 2013-10-18 01:49:23 DK7FC 5981km 137560.016Hz 3mHz -46.4dBOp 80% 16.8dB John, W1TAG ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01CECC2D.FA235FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
OPDS32
 
Jay
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Stefan = Sch=C3=A4fer
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 = 5:59=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: T/A OPDS = DK7FC

Jay, John, LF,

...so it is another OPDS32 night? = Or are=20 you prepared for both, OPDS32 and OPDS8 ?

73, Stefan

Am=20 18.10.2013 23:43, schrieb John Andrews:=20
My setup is running, but I can't check or modify it until = Saturday=20 afternoon. 

John, W1TAG



On Oct 18, 2013, at 5:31 PM, <jrusgrove@comcast.net> = wrote:

T/A OPDS enthusiasts
 
It appears that = I mistakenly ran=20 with a known setup issue last night ... so my reported=20 SNR numbers should not be considered accurate. The issue is = now=20 resolved and the setup is running. Hope to catch both = Stefan and=20 Markus tonight ... maybe VO1NA can be encouraged to join in as = well. Have=20 only received Joe's OPDS32 on one ocassion several weeks=20 back.
 
Jay W1VD  WD2XNS  = WE2XGR/2 =20 WG2XRS/2  
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Markus Vester
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: LF: T/A OPDS DK7FC

Stefan, Jay, John,
 
the "96%" number shows the = temporal overlap=20 between the receive period (ie the duration of = the currently=20 used FFT, about 35 minutes) and the identified Op = sequence (33=20 minutes). With 10 minutes spacing between subsequent FFTs, = the=20 sequence does not always fit completely into one of = the slots. so=20 it says that 96% of the sequence was included in the evaluation. = However=20 the missing part has only neglegible impact on the = detection=20 sensitivity.
 
Ideally Opera can be = treated as=20 an AM signal, with a central carrier and modulation sidebands = around it.=20 The "2mHz" bandwidth figure refers to the bandwidth of the = carrier,=20 which should be as small as possible. Opds applies some = smoothing to the=20 power spectrum and then tries to measure the -10 dB bandwidth of = the=20 central peak. Stable and phase coherent signals = consistently show=20 less than 3 mHz bandwidth. An intermediate width up to = about 30=20 mHz typically indicates a coherent signal but with a = slight=20 thermal drift. Even higher bandwidth (~ 100 mHz) are = mostly due=20 to incoherent keying, ie random phase dashes caused by = stopping the=20 TX oscillator or divider during gaps.
 
Opds internally uses an = "autofocus" concept=20 similar to synchroneous demodulation, where the central spectral = peak is=20 used as a phase reference. Narrower=20 carriers produce better demodulated SNR. For fading or = incoherent signals, the phase has to be tracked faster or even = on a=20 dash-by-dash basis, which is much less efficient.
 
The "dBOp" column is showing = SNR according=20 to Jos=C3=A9's Opera scale, which is approximately based on = average power. It=20 shows 4 dB more negative values than the standard WSPR scale, = ie.=20 carrier power in 2.5 kHz. A marginally decode with WSPR-15 would = need=20 -38 dB, and an Opera signal with same PEP would then show = as -42=20 dBOp. For a coherent signal, the Opds-32 threshold should = be around=20 -50 dBOp, which in theory is 8 dB better than WSPR-15 and 11 dB = better=20 than standard Opera-32.
 
Please be aware that the SNR = figures shown=20 in opds results can sometimes be inaccurate. With an = incoherent=20 signal, often not all of the carrier power is captured = during the=20 bandwidth measurement, producing a low or invalid SNR=20 reading. The SNR measurement also doesn't work well = for strong=20 signals (> -20 dBOp), eg for DK7FC who should really be plus = several=20 dB here.
 
So why was Stefan's TA signal = not stronger=20 last night? My guess is that TA propagation just didn't=20 extend into central Europe: While UK and duch stations = received Bob=20 well on 74 kHz, little or nothing at all apperared on = Hartmut's and=20 my 74 kHz grabbers.
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 
PS The = weather has improved here,=20 so I have put out the TX antenna for a possible joint TA = session=20 tonight.
 

Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: LF: T/A OPDS DK7FC

Hi John, Jay, Markus,

OK. Well, it seems to work. = But i=20 can't value the results. Why is it only 96% and what is the = meaning of 2=20 mHz here?
Seems the S/N is rather low. Condx must have been=20 poor.
Were there other reports from US stns?

73,=20 Stefan/DK7FC

Am 18.10.2013 13:05, schrieb John=20 Andrews:
Stefan, Markus, Jay,

Results from last=20 night:

2013-10-18 05:09:25 DK7FC   5981km=20 137560.016Hz   2mHz -42.8dBOp  96% = 20.6dB
2013-10-18=20 04:29:25 DK7FC   5981km 137560.016Hz   2mHz=20 -44.8dBOp  96% 17.8dB
2013-10-18 03:49:23 = DK7FC  =20 5981km 137560.016Hz   2mHz -44.0dBOp =20 96% 20.3dB
2013-10-18 03:09:23 DK7FC   5981km=20 137560.017Hz   2mHz -43.7dBOp =20 96% 19.0dB
2013-10-18 02:29:23 DK7FC   5981km=20 137560.016Hz   3mHz -47.5dBOp =20 96% 17.9dB
2013-10-18 01:49:23 DK7FC   5981km=20 137560.016Hz   3mHz -46.4dBOp  = 80% 16.8dB
John,=20 W1TAG

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