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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id ut3si13820801wjc.140.1969.12.31.16.00.00; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 18:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1VOdU0-0001Iu-CZ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 25 Sep 2013 02:01:36 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1VOdTz-0001Il-Ar for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 25 Sep 2013 02:01:35 +0100 Received: from blu0-omc1-s28.blu0.hotmail.com ([65.55.116.39]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1VOdTw-0006i6-6j for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 25 Sep 2013 02:01:34 +0100 Received: from BLU180-W51 ([65.55.116.7]) by blu0-omc1-s28.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 24 Sep 2013 18:01:28 -0700 X-TMN: [xVp7EQ2WTKYwm6H5tVM43CIvn8YM8A4t] X-Originating-Email: [rjraide@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: Bob Raide To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 21:01:28 -0400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <8C15231456D14C7EA62378D07C17171D@gnat> References: ,<524213E5.5000509@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> ,<8C15231456D14C7EA62378D07C17171D@gnat> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Sep 2013 01:01:28.0558 (UTC) FILETIME=[C40488E0:01CEB98A] X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Alan; I appreciate your input on 73. It was my idea to have Warren Zeigler file an app just to see what might happen at our FCC. I had heard the staff at our FCC was instructed to welcome experimenters for the lower freqs. Warren filed it but told me nothing may come of it but they granted us the license! I am using a tube amp [3cx3000A7] with pi-net output and can make 2 kw easily. But only have a 90' high tower and at the top is the center feed point of my 75 meter double extended zepp. I simply short the open wire line which runs almost vertically and fed it with allot of inductance in series! I assume the two 150' legs acts as top loading. Ground system is from my broadcast experience where for field intensity surveys 36" wide chicken wire was used with a 100' tower most often and a 250 transmitter. Eight 50' chicken wire radials produced decent field on the midband channels [1000 kHz or so] to measure from. Here I am using several 150' radials of chicken wire radials. I hope to stretch some out to 300' but that's going to be about it at my location. I have made it out to Kansas just two days ago with solid QRSS 60 sigs daytime. I am running just about 1.5 KW into the ant. The voltage at the feedpoint draws over a 2" spark to a screw driver so am about at the power top end I think. Here in the finger lakes region of NY State the winter ground conductivity goes to 8 or better to the NE with several finger lakes East of me. If I were on the coast I think it would be a snap to hit the UK over the salt water. Going to be harder for me inland here. Any comments would be appreciated-Bob From: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 01:16:12 +0100 Subject: Re: LF: TA CW? [...] Content analysis details: (-0.6 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [65.55.116.39 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (rjraide[at]hotmail.com) 1.6 SUBJ_ALL_CAPS Subject is all capitals -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -2.3 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 170d09a2454389e326e0caea8d7379f3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_8ec084b9-6ecb-4491-ad04-1997dbcd039d_" Subject: RE: LF: TA CW? X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD, HTML_MESSAGE,SUBJ_ALL_CAPS,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1680 --_8ec084b9-6ecb-4491-ad04-1997dbcd039d_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan=3B I appreciate your input on 73. It was my idea to have Warren Zeigler file = an app just to see what might happen at our FCC. I had heard the staff at = our FCC was instructed to welcome experimenters for the lower freqs. Warre= n filed it but told me nothing may come of it but they granted us the licen= se! I am using a tube amp [3cx3000A7] with pi-net output and can make 2 kw easi= ly. But only have a 90' high tower and at the top is the center feed point= of my 75 meter double extended zepp. I simply short the open wire line wh= ich runs almost vertically and fed it with allot of inductance in series! I= assume the two 150' legs acts as top loading. Ground system is from my bro= adcast experience where for field intensity surveys 36" wide chicken wire w= as used with a 100' tower most often and a 250 transmitter. Eight 50' chic= ken wire radials produced decent field on the midband channels [1000 kHz or= so] to measure from. Here I am using several 150' radials of chicken wire= radials. I hope to stretch some out to 300' but that's going to be about = it at my location. I have made it out to Kansas just two days ago with sol= id QRSS 60 sigs daytime. =20 I am running just about 1.5 KW into the ant. The voltage at the feedpoint = draws over a 2" spark to a screw driver so am about at the power top end I = think. Here in the finger lakes region of NY State the winter ground conductivity = goes to 8 or better to the NE with several finger lakes East of me. If I w= ere on the coast I think it would be a snap to hit the UK over the salt wat= er. Going to be harder for me inland here. Any comments would be appreciated-Bob From: alan.melia@btinternet.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wed=2C 25 Sep 2013 01:16:12 +0100 Subject: Re: LF: TA CW? =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Hi Bob=2C the propagation conditions are very similar =0A= to the other LF bands ....there is skywave but the ground wave is stronger = =0A= further. The usual problem is antenna efficiency .....in rounded figures 73= is 4 =0A= times more difficult than 136=2C which is 10 times more difficult than 470/= 500. =0A= =0A= =0A= Beware of using HF or commercial "folklaw" on =0A= ground systems You MUST measure as you go otherwise you will waste a lot of= time =0A= and dollars to no great effect. I measured Ground Loss in experiments with = =0A= Finbar early in the 137 era (using a simple transformer-ratio-arm-bridge)= =2C and =0A= rolling out "radials" can be a big mistake.....it all depends on your =0A= environment. the first one or maybe two make a difference then it gets you = wont =0A= notice the difference To be effective radials on amateur sizes antennas nee= d to =0A= be at least 1/8 wavelength which is over half a mile! Unlike 160m skin =0A= depth in the ground can be 30 feet or more at these frequencies. A lookat = =0A= commercial VLF antennas is more helpful. They use massive capacity top load= ing=2C =0A= but they can usually choose their site for its suitability.=0A= =0A= The only station to make the crossing on 73 when we =0A= still had it on this side was Laurie G3AQC (now SK) He was using 1200W from= an =0A= ex Decca Nav TX and a reasonably efficient antenna...... but not that good.= His =0A= ERP was probably close to 1watt.=0A= =0A= Best of Luck ..... its a pity we will =0A= not get an allocation there again.=0A= Alan=0A= G3NYK (an original UK 73kHz "licence" =0A= holder)=0A= =0A= ----- Original Message ----- =0A= From: =0A= Bob Raide =0A= =0A= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A= =0A= Sent: Wednesday=2C September 25=2C 2013 12:01 =0A= AM=0A= Subject: RE: LF: TA CW?=0A= =20 =0A= Stefan=3B 73 kHz band is going to be difficult from my =0A= preliminary tests. Seems to be a lack of skywave. I think skywave =0A= is going to be rather scarce and best I am doing so far is out to Kansas = =0A= but it is ground wave am sure. Got to get the ground system rolled out = =0A= here soon as lawn mowing ends. That should help to give me more =0A= field strength on all the bands. Going to try 73 periodically and see = =0A= what shakes out! I have worked PA0A on CW by ear last winter on 500. =0A= Yes our 500 licenses go down to 470 region. In winter we should have no = =0A= trouble working CW by ear am sure and will be looking forward to it as yo= u =0A= would be even further away from me than PA. I also worked into N. =0A= Ireland and I went to SSB and was heard and worked Finbar=2C EI0CL [I for= got the =0A= suffix of his call] cross mode as he has no SSB authorization. Jay=2C = =0A= Warren and I work regularly Sunday evenings on 510 upper throughout =0A= the Winter months. I see no takers for 73. Gary has a grabber on =0A= 73 for us and using QRSS 500 spec lab and I tried last nite but never saw= a =0A= trace. With ground system out this Winter his grabber may be a =0A= winner-Bob =20 =0A= =0A= =0A= Date: Wed=2C 25 Sep 2013 00:36:21 +0200 From: =0A= Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: TA CW? Hi Bob=2C =0A= =20 Success! :-) Welcome! :-) Sorry i can't receive on 4000m here =0A= since my receivers are mono band homemade DC converters (for 137 kHz and = 472 =0A= kHz) and direct sampling receivers at 0...24 kHz. But=2C i remember you =0A= were the strongest station on MF (is that 472...479 kHz for your licence?= ) =0A= last season. Are you a CW man as well? Do you think it is realistic to tr= y for =0A= a TA CW QSO? If=2C then it could work in november to february. So far i'm= only =0A= getting sporadic WSPR-2 decodes at WD2XSH/17. My WSPR signal is QRP thoug= h. At =0A= least VO1NA copied my signal in GN37OR last year... Worth a try? I'm =0A= continuously doing overnite WSPR-2 tests on 630m. 73=2C =0A= Stefan/DK7FC Am 24.09.2013 23:45=2C schrieb Bob Raide: =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= All=3B With Stefan's help I seem to have finally made it into =0A= the group. I am Bob Raide W2ZM with exp. license's for 500=2C 137=2C = =0A= and most recently 73 kHz band.=20 I am ready to fire up on 72.401 with Qrss =0A= 60 if anyone is interested to try for a capture tonite. Or I can =0A= change to 137 if no one is interested in 4000 meters. 500 kHz =0A= call-WE2XGR/6=2C 137-WE2XEB=2C 73-WG2XRS/4 Thanks all=2C =0A= Bob = --_8ec084b9-6ecb-4491-ad04-1997dbcd039d_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alan=3B
I appreciate your inp= ut on 73. =3B It was my idea to have Warren Zeigler file an app just to= see what might happen at our FCC. =3B I had heard the staff at our FCC= was instructed to welcome experimenters for the lower freqs. =3B = =3BWarren filed it but told me nothing may come of it but they granted us t= he license!
I am using a tube amp [3cx3000A7] with pi-net output and can= make 2 kw easily. =3B But only have a 90' high tower and at the top is= the center feed point of my 75 meter double extended zepp. =3B I simpl= y short the open wire line which runs almost vertically =3Band fed it w= ith allot of inductance in series! =3BI assume the two 150' legs acts a= s top loading. =3BGround system is from my broadcast experience where f= or field intensity surveys 36" wide =3Bchicken wire was used with a 100= ' tower most often and a 250 transmitter. =3B =3BEight 50' chicken = wire radials produced decent =3Bfield on the midband channels [1000 kHz= or so] to measure from. =3B Here I am using several 150' radials of ch= icken wire radials. =3B I hope to stretch some out to 300' but that's g= oing to be about it at my location. =3B I have made it out to Kansas ju= st two days ago with solid QRSS 60 sigs daytime. =3B
I am running j= ust about 1.5 KW into the ant. =3B The voltage at the feedpoint draws o= ver a 2" spark to a screw driver so am about at the power top end I think.<= BR>Here in the finger lakes region of NY State the winter ground conductivi= ty goes to 8 or better to the NE with several finger lakes East of me. = =3B If I were on the coast I think it would be a snap to hit the UK over th= e salt water. =3B Going to be harder for me inland here.
Any comment= s would be appreciated-Bob
From: alan.melia= @btinternet.com
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Wed=2C 25 Sep = 2013 01:16:12 +0100
Subject: Re: LF: TA CW?

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
Hi Bob=2C the propagation conditions a= re very similar =0A= to the other LF bands ....there is skywave but the ground wave is stronger = =0A= further. The usual problem is antenna efficiency .....in rounded figures 73= is 4 =0A= times more difficult than 136=2C which is 10 times more difficult than 470/= 500. =0A=
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Beware of using HF or commercial "folk= law" on =0A= ground systems You MUST measure as you go otherwise you will waste a lot of= time =0A= and dollars to no great effect. I measured Ground Loss in experiments with = =0A= Finbar early in the 137 era (using a simple transformer-ratio-arm-bridge)= =2C and =0A= rolling out "radials" can be a big mistake.....it all depends on your =0A= environment. the first one or maybe two make a difference then it gets you = wont =0A= notice the difference To be effective radials on amateur sizes antennas nee= d to =0A= be at least 1/8 wavelength =3Bwhich is over half a mile! Unlike 160m sk= in =0A= depth in the ground can be 30 feet or more at these frequencies. A lookat = =0A= commercial VLF antennas is more helpful. They use massive capacity top load= ing=2C =0A= but they can usually choose their site for its suitability.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
The only station to make the crossing = on 73 when we =0A= still had it on this side was Laurie G3AQC (now SK) He was using 1200W from= an =0A= ex Decca Nav TX and a reasonably efficient antenna...... but not that good.= His =0A= ERP was probably close to 1watt.
=0A=
 =3B
=0A=
Best of Luck ..... =3B =3B its= a pity we will =0A= not get an allocation there again.
=0A=
Alan
=0A=
G3NYK (an original UK 73kHz "licence" = =0A= holder)
=0A=
=0A=
----- Original Message -----
=0A=
From: =0A= Bob = Raide =0A=
=0A= =0A=
Sent: Wednesday=2C September 25=2C 2013 12:01 =0A= AM
=0A=
Subject: RE: LF: TA CW?
=0A=

=0A=
Stefan=3B
73 kHz band is going to be difficult from m= y =0A= preliminary tests. =3B Seems to be a lack of skywave. =3B I think= skywave =0A= is going to be rather scarce and =3Bbest I am doing so far is out to = Kansas =0A= but it is ground wave am sure. =3B Got to get the ground system rolle= d out =0A= here soon as lawn mowing ends. =3B That should help =3Bto give me= more =0A= field strength on all the bands. =3B Going to try 73 periodically and= see =0A= what shakes out!
I have worked PA0A on CW by ear last winter on 500.&n= bsp=3B =0A= Yes our 500 licenses go down to 470 region. =3B In winter we should h= ave no =0A= trouble working CW by ear am sure and will be looking forward to it as yo= u =0A= would be even further away from me than PA. =3B I also worked into N.= =0A= Ireland and I went to SSB and was heard and worked Finbar=2C EI0CL [I for= got the =0A= suffix of his call] cross mode as he has no SSB authorization. =3B Ja= y=2C =0A= Warren and I work regularly Sunday evenings on 510 upper throughout =0A= the =3BWinter months.
I see no takers for 73. =3B Gary has a g= rabber on =0A= 73 for us and using QRSS 500 spec lab and I tried last nite but never saw= a =0A= trace. =3B With ground system out this Winter his grabber may be a = =0A= winner-Bob
 =3B
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= Date: Wed=2C 25 Sep 2013 00:36:21 +0200
From: =0A= Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de
To: =0A= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: TA CW?

Hi Bob=2C =0A=

Success! :-) Welcome! :-)

Sorry i can't receive on 4000m h= ere =0A= since my receivers are mono band homemade DC converters (for 137 kHz and = 472 =0A= kHz) and direct sampling receivers at 0...24 kHz.

But=2C i remembe= r you =0A= were the strongest station on MF (is that 472...479 kHz for your licence?= ) =0A= last season. Are you a CW man as well? Do you think it is realistic to tr= y for =0A= a TA CW QSO? If=2C then it could work in november to february. So far i'm= only =0A= getting sporadic WSPR-2 decodes at WD2XSH/17. My WSPR signal is QRP thoug= h. At =0A= least VO1NA copied my signal in GN37OR last year...
Worth a try? I'm = =0A= continuously doing overnite WSPR-2 tests on 630m.

73=2C =0A= Stefan/DK7FC


Am 24.09.2013 23:45=2C schrieb Bob Raide: =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A=
All=3B
With Stefan's help I seem to have finally ma= de it into =0A= the group. =3B I am Bob Raide W2ZM with exp. =3B license's for = 500=2C 137=2C =0A= and most recently 73 kHz band.
I am ready to fire up on 72.401 with= Qrss =0A= 60 if anyone is interested to try for a capture tonite. =3B Or I ca= n =0A= change to 137 if no one is interested in 4000 meters.
500 kHz =0A= call-WE2XGR/6=2C 137-WE2XEB=2C 73-WG2XRS/4
Thanks all=2C =0A= Bob
= --_8ec084b9-6ecb-4491-ad04-1997dbcd039d_--