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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id br10si1242942wib.3.1969.12.31.16.00.00; Sat, 28 Sep 2013 06:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1VPuVv-0008FM-LM for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 28 Sep 2013 14:24:51 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1VPuVu-0008FD-Vz for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 28 Sep 2013 14:24:50 +0100 Received: from smtpout1.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.29] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1VPuVs-0005UE-O6 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 28 Sep 2013 14:24:49 +0100 Received: from AGB ([2.31.68.36]) by mwinf5d09 with ME id WdQm1m00A0mwsG203dQmBa; Sat, 28 Sep 2013 15:24:47 +0200 Message-ID: <3FD134E11F8C4185A077105DD150185B@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <5244AB81.8020503@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> ,<5245765A.3030301@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <52459149.7070307@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <00b401cebb94$29946cb0$6d01a8c0@DELL4> <317DFD83703544938DA4CC8A5F5655B3@AGB> <5245BC6B.3090101@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <004701cebbdf$b4a0eef0$6401a8c0@JAYDELL> In-Reply-To: <004701cebbdf$b4a0eef0$6401a8c0@JAYDELL> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2013 14:24:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: S/N has no real meaning in data transmission , the decode level is decided by various parameters , the channel b/w has no influence on the decode decision , other than to influence the analogue value , which in this case may be set at a lower level than it actually is , the level of false decodes is a guide to the system design or lack of , [...] Content analysis details: (2.6 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.29 listed in list.dnswl.org] 2.6 LIVEFILESTORE URI: LIVEFILESTORE 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 83a2133e070aeb0e493d1efa454df885 Subject: Re: LF: Re: QRSS OP WSPR Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0061_01CEBC56.7B5EC1E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY,MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2873 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01CEBC56.7B5EC1E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0062_01CEBC56.7B5EC1E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0062_01CEBC56.7B5EC1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable S/N has no real meaning in data transmission , the decode = level is decided by various parameters , the channel b/w has = no influence on the decode decision , other than to influence the = analogue value , which in this case may be set at a lower = level than it actually is , the level of false decodes is a = guide to the system design or lack of ,=20 But, I quite like vintage motor sports and wspr is now a = vintage mode, , requiring disproportional external support , it = was fine but has been overtaken now by modes that have a minimal = of hardware requirements and make no use of embedded call = sign lists , double passes or ultra stability or external time = locking and looking on the web , seem to have a absence of = comments round issues of decode integrity ? G,=20 From: jrusgrove@comcast.net=20 Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2013 1:14 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: QRSS OP WSPR G Given an available amount of PEP and a multimode transmitter WSPR wins. = Get over it.=20 Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 WG2XSR/2 p.s. In this day and age with all of the hardware and software = available, there's no good reason a capable radio man cannot generate an = SSB signal - VLF to microwave.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Graham=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 3:15 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: QRSS OP WSPR Engineering Engineering Engineering=20 Another -3 dB at the Rx in this case is 1000 watts at the Tx = 10 db =3D 10KW=20 The advantages of Opera is that it works simple as that=20 from shf to vlf with normal equipment [very] wspr-15 was a ill conceived botch of a inefficient existing = system =20 with increasing the time by 7 , resulted in a stability = requirement =20 of x7 as well and a decode engine that was / is not = reliable=20 and non compatible with average equipment=20 Opera was conceived , designed , tested on simple CW Tx's and crossed the Atlantic in 3 months and remained =20 stable ever since , that's Engineering not BF&I=20 This is radio Ham , but not all involved are amateurs , some = seem to take advantage of this , while others , take the opposite = view=20 73-G,=20 Nb Why should a CW tx cause key clicks ? Opera was designed = with a 10 mS rise time cw envelope , part of of a CW tx design is=20 click suppression =20 From: Stefan Sch=E4fer=20 Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 6:12 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: QRSS OP WSPR G,=20 Am 27.09.2013 18:07, schrieb Graham:=20 Which , if you take into account , Opera is single tone = on/off with app 50% duty cycle , self sync mode=20 and wspr is a 4 mfsk externally time locked=20 That doesn't matter at all! A successful detection is all that counts, = not the energy (or average power) needed. If Bob can TX 3 kW WSPR-15, = then the RF energy is 0.75 kWh. With 50% duty cycle it may be 0.375 kWh = but who cares???? For the test to be valid , the wspr carrier level would of = needed to be 50% less that of the Opera system=20 No.=20 Transmitting amateur radio stations have a certain transmit antenna = with certain limitations (say 0.1 % efficiency) and they have a PA = giving a certain RF power (say 100 W). This results in a certain ERP. = The goal of the amateur radio station could be to be received/decoded in = a distance as high as possible. It is usually completely uninteresting = if you need 0.1 kWh or 0.2 kWh for a transmission, except in /p mode = using batteries. From my point of view the only real advantage of Opera is that you can = use a simple keyed VFO, like in CW. But then some will complain about = the key clicks :-) 73, Stefan =20 Mr Pixel =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0062_01CEBC56.7B5EC1E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
S/N has  no  real  meaning  in  data  = transmission  , the   decode  level  is =20 decided  by  various  parameters  , the  = channel =20 b/w  has  no  influence  on the  decode  = decision=20 , other  than to  influence the  analogue  value ,=20 which  in this  case  may  be  set  = at =20 a  lower  level  than  it  actually  is =  =20   , the  level  of  false decodes  is a guide = to=20 the  system  design or lack of ,
 
But, I quite  like   vintage  motor   = sports  and   wspr  is now a  vintage =20 mode,   ,  requiring  disproportional  = external =20 support , it  was  fine  but  has been  = overtaken now=20  by modes that  have a  minimal of  hardware =20 requirements      and make  no use =20 of embedded  call  sign  lists  , double =20 passes  or  ultra  stability or  external  time = locking  and  looking  on the  web , seem  = to =20 have  a  absence  of  comments  round =20 issues  of  decode integrity   ?
 
G,
 
 
 
 
 
 

From: jrusgrove@comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2013 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: QRSS OP WSPR

G
 
Given an available amount of PEP and a = multimode=20 transmitter WSPR wins. Get over it.
 
Jay W1VD  WD2XNS  = WE2XGR/2 =20 WG2XSR/2
 
p.s. In this day and age with all of = the hardware=20 and software available, there's no good reason a capable radio man = cannot=20 generate an SSB signal - VLF to microwave.
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Graham
Sent: Friday, September 27, = 2013 3:15=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: QRSS OP = WSPR

Engineering  Engineering Engineering
 
Another   -3 dB  at the  Rx in this case = is   1000  watts  at the  Tx 
10 db  =3D 10KW
 
The  advantages  of  Opera  is that  = it =20 works  simple  as that
from  shf to  vlf  with  normal  = equipment=20 [very]
 
wspr-15  was  a  ill  conceived  = botch =20 of  a  inefficient  existing  system 
with  increasing  the  time  by  7  = ,=20 resulted  in a  stability  requirement 
of  x7 as well  and     a decode =20 engine  that  was / is  not  reliable
and  non compatible  with  average  equipment =
 
Opera was conceived , designed , tested  on  = simple=20 CW
Tx's and  crossed  the  Atlantic in 3 months  = and=20 remained 
stable   ever since , that's  Engineering  not = BF&I=20
 
This  is   radio Ham  , but  = not =20 all  involved  are  amateurs  , some seem
to  take  advantage  of this  , while  = others ,=20 take the  opposite  view
 
73-G,
 
 
Nb  Why  should  a  CW  tx  = cause  key=20 clicks  ?  Opera was designed  with
a  10 mS rise time  cw  envelope , part  of = of =20 a CW tx design is
click  suppression  
 
 

From: Stefan = Sch=E4fer
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: QRSS OP WSPR

G,

Am 27.09.2013 18:07, schrieb Graham:=20
Which =20 , if you  take  into  account  , Opera  = is =20 single  tone   on/off    with  = app =20 50% duty cycle  , self  sync  mode=20
and   wspr  is  a   4 = mfsk  =20  externally  time  locked =
That doesn't=20 matter at all! A successful detection is all that counts, not the = energy (or=20 average power) needed. If Bob can TX 3 kW WSPR-15, then the RF energy = is 0.75=20 kWh. With 50% duty cycle it may be 0.375 kWh but who cares????

 
For the  test to  be  valid , the =20 wspr  carrier  level  would  of  = needed =20 to  be  50% less  that  of the  Opera  = system=20
No.
Transmitting = amateur radio=20 stations have a certain transmit antenna with certain limitations (say = 0.1 %=20 efficiency) and they have a PA giving a certain RF power (say 100 W). = This=20 results in a certain ERP. The goal of the amateur radio station could = be to be=20 received/decoded in a distance as high as possible. It is usually = completely=20 uninteresting if you need 0.1 kWh or 0.2 kWh for a transmission, = except in /p=20 mode using batteries.

From my point of view the only real = advantage=20 of Opera is that you can use a simple keyed VFO, like in CW. But then = some=20 will complain about the key clicks :-)

73, Stefan



 
Mr Pixel=20
 
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