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From: Markus Vester <markusvester@aol.com>
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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 08:37:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: Quadrocopter antenna, sri, a bit OT
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Hi Stefan, LF,
=C2=A0
the quadrocopter which we tried was a DJI Phantom. It is smaller than the F=
550 and currently goes for around 570 Euro (ready to fly, including battery=
 and a 2.4 GHz remote control). A similarly equipped model, Blade 350QX, sh=
ould become available soon for about 450 Euro. Very light quadrocopters can=
 be had for as little as 60 Euro but they could presumably lift only short =
and very thin wires.
=C2=A0
With GPS, gyro and compass sensors, the Phantom was indeed extremely easy t=
o fly even by an unexperienced person like me. With 11.8V 2.2Ah LiPo batter=
y it will stay aloft for 10 to 15 minutes, so power consumption must be aro=
und 120 W. The motors are said to be able to stand continuous duty. Lifting=
 capability should be around 0.3 kg, and my friend intends to install a fir=
st-person-view video cam later. We have not tried to lift a wire or string =
yet, so I don't know how much the behaviour would be affected eg. by wind d=
rag on the wire.=C2=A0With 6 m/s climb rate, the heli could theoretically g=
o up to 2000m and more on a battery charge. The remote control is specified=
 for 300m range, which could probably be fixed by a higher gain 2.4 GHz tra=
nsmit antenna.=20
=C2=A0
Yes power could be fed continuously by making the LF antenna a twin wire. O=
n the ground either an Austen transformer or a bifilar wound loading coil c=
ould be used (maybe by splitting up groups of strands in the RF litz). The =
heli then cannot be separated by a distance from the antenna tip which may =
aggravate potential EMC issues. Alternatively, I am still wondering whether=
 enough charging power could be extracted by capacitive coupling to the LF =
transmission...
=C2=A0
Currently in Germany there seem to be no general restrictions about flying =
light helis (less than 2 kg) even over inhabited terrain. I am not sure tho=
ugh about legal implications of a tethering wire or going to higher altitud=
es. Basic liability insurance seems definitely recommended and can be obtai=
ned eg by joining a model flight club. While hovering over houses after sun=
set with bright green and LED bars on, we were confronted by one neighbour =
who strongly expressed her dislike of the activity. People mostly seem to b=
e concerned of "Papparazzi drones" invading their precious privacy, the aco=
ustic noise when flying low, and surely the fear that these things might en=
d up falling onto their heads.
=C2=A0
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)


-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20
Von: Stefan Sch=C3=A4fer &lt;Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de&gt;
An: rsgb_lf_group &lt;rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org&gt;
Verschickt: Di, 6 Aug 2013 1:43 am
Betreff: Re: LF: Quadrocopter antenna, sri, a bit OT

Hi Warren, LF/VLF,

I just found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DG3yR-GxD1is=C2=A0 Take =
a look at it. I can't find the words. I think i must have one :-)
That must be SEVERAL 100m above ground. I think we could even do VLF experi=
ments with such a copter. Maybe a 500m vertical? I remember the weight of t=
he wire in my 300m kite antenna test was about 1.5 kg, not more. So with 50=
0m we could come lower than 5.17 kHz, like i did in 2010/2011.

73, Stefan/DK7FC


Am 06.08.2013 01:02, schrieb Warren Ziegler: Stefan, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 But 100m=
 is not better than your kite experiments!
Yes you gain control but not height.=C2=A0
You will still need a battery to land the quadcopter in the event of a fail=
ure of the power carrying wire.


73 W


On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Stefan Sch=C3=A4fer &lt;Stefan.Schaefer@iup=
.uni-heidelberg.de&gt; wrote:
Hi all,=20

I just gathered some informations from the web. Just one example for a, pro=
bably, suitable hexacopter to carry a LF transmit antenna.=20

For example a DJI F550, see a video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DveD=
rtdE6njo or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D2QC9so2so3Y). Looks like they =
can easily lift 1 kg! You can fly about 10 minutes with a 5.3 Ah battery. T=
he battery voltage is to 11.1V...14.8V. So the power consumption may be 200=
...300 W ! With a compact SMPS on the copter and a 2 wire line it could be =
possible to carry the antenna. And 100m is no problem too!!
I consider to buy one! And look this, most fascinating. http://www.youtube.=
com/watch?v=3DJecyY79K7kY

73, Stefan/DK7FC


Am 05.08.2013 15:25, schrieb Stefan Sch=C3=A4fer:=20
Am 04.08.2013 17:52, schrieb DK1IS: [...]But with nowadays quadrocopters an=
d a "little" reduction of the demands it should be possible to feed them fr=
om the ground with DC (or AC plus converters for reduction of current) via =
2 wire line and having a good antenna too.

73,
Tom, DK1IS


That's it! So, Markus, could you ask your friend abot some technical detail=
s? What is the supply voltage of the system and power consumption (or lifet=
ime at a certain battery charge)? Is it possible to lift 1 kg and how does =
it change the power consumption? It should be no problem to feed DC to the =
system or a compact power supply in the sky and normal 230V mains at ground=
 (todays PSUs have an input voltage range of 85...240V AC, so a certain vol=
tage drop on the thin wire should be no problem.
Maybe you can do some tests?

The advatages are clear. A quadrocopter keeps the position and height, even=
 in smaller wind blasts while a balloon bounces left and right. The costs o=
f Helium will quickly overcome the costs for a quadrocopter. Ah and such a =
project is simply more interesting i guess :-)

73, Stefan/DK7FC


--=20
73 Warren K2ORS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WD2XGJ=20
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WD2XSH/23
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WE2XEB/2
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WE2XGR/1

Re: LF: USA issued 68 to 76 kHz band with 10 W ERP=20
Von: Markus Vester &lt;markusvester@aol.com&gt;=20
An: rsgb_lf_group &lt;rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org&gt;=20
Datum: So, 4 Aug 2013 9:47 am=20
=C2=A0
...Yesterday night a friend showed me his new GPS-stabilized quadrocopter. =
It's stunning how it could just about be parked in midair, despite some lat=
eral winds. Seems that would make a great antenna carrier! Not all of the n=
eighbour's seemed to enjoy it as much as we did...=20
=C2=A0
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)


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</head>


<body style=3D"background-color: #fff;">
<span style=3D"display:none">&nbsp;</span>

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=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
      <p>
<div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial;COLOR: black;FONT-SIZE: 10pt;">Hi Stefan, =
LF,</div>


<div>&nbsp;</div>


<div>the quadrocopter which we tried was a DJI Phantom. It is smaller than =
the F550 and currently goes for around 570 Euro (ready to fly, including ba=
ttery and a 2.4 GHz remote control). A similarly equipped model, Blade 350Q=
X, should become available soon for about 450 Euro. Very light quadrocopter=
s can be had for as little as 60 Euro but they could presumably lift only s=
hort and very thin wires.</div>


<div>&nbsp;</div>


<div>With GPS, gyro and compass sensors, the Phantom was indeed extremely e=
asy to fly even by an unexperienced person like me. With 11.8V 2.2Ah LiPo b=
attery it will stay aloft for 10 to 15 minutes, so power consumption must b=
e around 120 W. The motors are said to be able to stand continuous duty. Li=
fting capability should be around 0.3 kg, and my friend intends to install =
a first-person-view video cam later. We have not tried to lift a wire or st=
ring yet, so I don't know how much the behaviour would be affected eg. by w=
ind drag on the wire.&nbsp;With 6 m/s climb rate, the heli could theoretica=
lly go up to 2000m and more on a battery charge. The remote control is spec=
ified for 300m range, which could probably be fixed by a higher gain 2.4 GH=
z transmit antenna. </div>


<div>&nbsp;</div>


<div>Yes power could be fed continuously by making the LF antenna a twin wi=
re. On the ground either an Austen transformer or a bifilar wound loading c=
oil could be used (maybe by splitting up groups of strands in the RF litz).=
 The heli then cannot be separated by a distance from the antenna tip which=
 may aggravate potential EMC issues. Alternatively, I am still wondering wh=
ether enough charging power could be extracted by capacitive coupling to th=
e LF transmission...</div>


<div>&nbsp;</div>


<div>Currently in Germany there seem to be no general restrictions about fl=
ying light helis (less than 2 kg) even over inhabited terrain. I am not sur=
e though about legal implications of a tethering wire or going to higher al=
titudes. Basic liability insurance seems definitely recommended and can be =
obtained eg by joining a model flight club. While hovering over houses afte=
r sunset with bright green and LED bars on, we were confronted by one neigh=
bour who strongly expressed her dislike of the activity. People mostly seem=
 to be concerned of "Papparazzi drones" invading their precious privacy, th=
e acoustic noise when flying low, and surely the fear that these things mig=
ht end up falling onto their heads.</div>


<div>&nbsp;</div>


<div>Best 73,<br>
Markus (DF6NM)<br>
<br>
</div>
-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- <br>
Von: Stefan Sch=C3=A4fer &lt;Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de&gt;<br>
An: rsgb_lf_group &lt;rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org&gt;<br>
Verschickt: Di, 6 Aug 2013 1:43 am<br>
Betreff: Re: LF: Quadrocopter antenna, sri, a bit OT<br>
<br>


<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1_a4a87010-3a38-4d18-83da-34839e3bbad1">

<div class=3D"aolReplacedBody" text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">Hi Warr=
en, LF/VLF,<br>
<br>
I just found this: <A class=3D"aolmail_moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http:=
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DG3yR-GxD1is" target=3D"_blank">http://www.youtu=
be.com/watch?v=3DG3yR-GxD1is</A>&nbsp; Take a look at it. I can't find the =
words. I think i must have one :-)<br>
That must be <U>SEVERAL</U> 100m above ground. I think we could even do VLF=
 experiments with such a copter. Maybe a 500m vertical? I remember the weig=
ht of the wire in my 300m kite antenna test was about 1.5 kg, not more. So =
with 500m we could come lower than 5.17 kHz, like i did in 2010/2011.<br>
<br>
73, Stefan/DK7FC<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 06.08.2013 01:02, schrieb Warren Ziegler:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">

<div dir=3D"ltr">Stefan,=20

<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; But 100m is not better than your kite experiments!</div>


<div>Yes you gain control but not height.&nbsp;</div>


<div>You will still need a battery to land the quadcopter in the event of a=
 failure of the power carrying wire.</div>


<div><br>
</div>


<div><br>
</div>


<div>73 W</div>
</div>


<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
</div>


<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Stefan S=
ch=C3=A4fer <SPAN dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<A href=3D"mailto:Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni=
-heidelberg.de">Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de</A>&gt;</SPAN> wrote:=
<br>

<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid;" class=3D"aol=
mail_gmail_quote">

<div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">Hi all, <br>
<br>
I just gathered some informations from the web. Just one example for a, pro=
bably, suitable hexacopter to carry a LF transmit antenna. <br>
<br>
For example a DJI F550, see a video at <A href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/wa=
tch?v=3DveDrtdE6njo" target=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DveD=
rtdE6njo</A> or <A href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D2QC9so2so3Y" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D2QC9so2so3Y</A>). Looks li=
ke they can easily lift 1 kg! You can fly about 10 minutes with a 5.3 Ah ba=
ttery. The battery voltage is to 11.1V...14.8V. So the power consumption ma=
y be 200...300 W ! With a compact SMPS on the copter and a 2 wire line it c=
ould be possible to carry the antenna. And 100m is no problem too!!<br>
I consider to buy one! And look this, most fascinating. <A href=3D"http://w=
ww.youtube.com/watch?v=3DJecyY79K7kY" target=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.=
com/watch?v=3DJecyY79K7kY</A><br>
<br>
73, Stefan/DK7FC<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 05.08.2013 15:25, schrieb Stefan Sch=C3=A4fer:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><br>
Am 04.08.2013 17:52, schrieb DK1IS:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">

<div>[...]But with nowadays quadrocopters and a "little" reduction of the d=
emands it should be possible to feed them from the ground with DC (or AC pl=
us converters for reduction of current) via 2 wire line and having a good a=
ntenna too.<br>
<br>
73,<br>
Tom, DK1IS<br>
</div>
</BLOCKQUOTE><br>
That's it! So, Markus, could you ask your friend abot some technical detail=
s? What is the supply voltage of the system and power consumption (or lifet=
ime at a certain battery charge)? Is it possible to lift 1 kg and how does =
it change the power consumption? It should be no problem to feed DC to the =
system or a compact power supply in the sky and normal 230V mains at ground=
 (todays PSUs have an input voltage range of 85...240V AC, so a certain vol=
tage drop on the thin wire should be no problem.<br>
Maybe you can do some tests?<br>
<br>
The advatages are clear. A quadrocopter keeps the position and height, even=
 in smaller wind blasts while a balloon bounces left and right. The costs o=
f Helium will quickly overcome the costs for a quadrocopter. Ah and such a =
project is simply more interesting i guess :-)<br>
<br>
73, Stefan/DK7FC<br>
</BLOCKQUOTE></div>
</BLOCKQUOTE></div>


<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra"><br>
<BR clear=3D"all"></div>


<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra"><br>
</div>


<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra">-- <br>
73 Warren K2ORS<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; WD2XGJ <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; WD2XSH/23<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; WE2XEB/2<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; WE2XGR/1<br>
<br>
Re: LF: USA issued 68 to 76 kHz band with 10 W ERP <br>
Von: Markus Vester &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:markusvester@aol.com">markusvester=
@aol.com</A>&gt; </div>


<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra">An: rsgb_lf_group &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:=
rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A>&gt; </div>


<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra">Datum: So, 4 Aug 2013 9:47 am </div>


<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra">&nbsp;</div>


<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra">...Yesterday night a friend showed me hi=
s new GPS-stabilized quadrocopter. It's stunning how it could just about be=
 parked in midair, despite some lateral winds. Seems that would make a grea=
t antenna carrier! Not all of the neighbour's seemed to enjoy it as much as=
 we did... <br>
&nbsp;<br>
Best 73,<br>
Markus (DF6NM)<br>
</div>
</BLOCKQUOTE></div>
</div>
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argin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;">

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<div id=3D"ygrp-reco">
     </div>
<!-- End Recommendations -->


  </div>   <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->

  <div style=3D"clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div>

  <img src=3D"http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=3D97490505/grpId=3D85080895/grpsp=
Id=3D1690063108/msgId=3D3279/stime=3D1375792638" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"> =
<br>

<div style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->

</body>

<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
  <style type=3D"text/css">
  <!--
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  border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
  font-family: Arial;
  margin: 10px 0;
  padding: 0 10px;
}

#ygrp-mkp hr {
  border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}

#ygrp-mkp #hd {
  color: #628c2a;
  font-size: 85%;
  font-weight: 700;
  line-height: 122%;
  margin: 10px 0;
}

#ygrp-mkp #ads {
  margin-bottom: 10px;
}

#ygrp-mkp .ad {
  padding: 0 0;
}

#ygrp-mkp .ad p {
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}

#ygrp-mkp .ad a {
  color: #0000ff;
  text-decoration: none;
}
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  font-family: Arial;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd {
  margin: 10px 0px;
  font-weight: 700;
  font-size: 78%;
  line-height: 122%;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad {
  margin-bottom: 10px;
  padding: 0 0;
}

  a {
    color: #1e66ae;
  }

  #actions {
    font-family: Verdana;
    font-size: 11px;
    padding: 10px 0;
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  #activity {
    background-color: #e0ecee;
    float: left;
    font-family: Verdana;
    font-size: 10px;
    padding: 10px;
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    font-weight: 700;
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  #activity span:first-child {
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  #activity span a {
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    text-decoration: none;
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  #activity span span {
    color: #ff7900;
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  #activity span .underline {
    text-decoration: underline;
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  .attach {
    clear: both;
    display: table;
    font-family: Arial;
    font-size: 12px;
    padding: 10px 0;
    width: 400px;
  }

  .attach div a {
    text-decoration: none;
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  .attach img {
    border: none;
    padding-right: 5px;
  }

  .attach label {
    display: block;
    margin-bottom: 5px;
  }

  .attach label a {
    text-decoration: none;
  }
=20=20
  blockquote {
    margin: 0 0 0 4px;
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  .bold {
    font-family: Arial;
    font-size: 13px;
    font-weight: 700;
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  dd.last p a {
    font-family: Verdana;
    font-weight: 700;
  }

  dd.last p span {
    margin-right: 10px;
    font-family: Verdana;
    font-weight: 700;
  }

  dd.last p span.yshortcuts {
    margin-right: 0;
  }

  div.attach-table div div a {
    text-decoration: none;
  }

  div.attach-table {
    width: 400px;
  }

  div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.fi=
le-title a:visited {
    text-decoration: none;
  }

  div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div=
.photo-title a:visited {
    text-decoration: none;
  }

  div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts {
    font-family: Verdana;
    font-size: 10px;
    font-weight: normal;
  }

  .green {
    color: #628c2a;
  }

  .MsoNormal {
    margin: 0 0 0 0;
  }

  o {
    font-size: 0;
  }

  #photos div {
    float: left;
    width: 72px;
  }

  #photos div div {
    border: 1px solid #666666;
    height: 62px;
    overflow: hidden;
    width: 62px;
  }

  #photos div label {
    color: #666666;
    font-size: 10px;
    overflow: hidden;
    text-align: center;
    white-space: nowrap;
    width: 64px;
  }

  #reco-category {
    font-size: 77%;
  }

  #reco-desc {
    font-size: 77%;
  }

  .replbq {
    margin: 4px;
  }

  #ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
   /* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/
    margin-right: 2px;
    padding-right: 5px;
  }

  #ygrp-mlmsg {
    font-size: 13px;
    font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif;
    *font-size: small;
    *font: x-small;
  }

  #ygrp-mlmsg table {
    font-size: inherit;
    font: 100%;
  }

  #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {
    font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;
  }

  #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {
    font:115% monospace;
    *font-size:100%;
  }

  #ygrp-mlmsg * {
    line-height: 1.22em;
  }

  #ygrp-mlmsg #logo {
    padding-bottom: 10px;
  }

  #ygrp-mlmsg a {
    color: #1E66AE;
  }

  #ygrp-msg p a {
    font-family: Verdana;
  }

  #ygrp-msg p#attach-count span {
    color: #1E66AE;
    font-weight: 700;
  }

  #ygrp-reco #reco-head {
    color: #ff7900;
    font-weight: 700;
  }

  #ygrp-reco {
    margin-bottom: 20px;
    padding: 0px;
  }

  #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a {
    font-size: 130%;
    text-decoration: none;
  }

  #ygrp-sponsor #ov li {
    font-size: 77%;
    list-style-type: square;
    padding: 6px 0;
  }=20

  #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul {
    margin: 0;
    padding: 0 0 0 8px;
  }

  #ygrp-text {
    font-family: Georgia;
  }

  #ygrp-text p {
    margin: 0 0 1em 0;
  }

  #ygrp-text tt {
    font-size: 120%;
  }

  #ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
    border-right: none !important;=20
  }=20
  -->
  </style>
</head>

<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html>
<!-- end group email -->


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