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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 47si8166635eeu.98.2013.07.05.17.23.05 for ; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 17:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UvFhl-0002YC-QZ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2013 00:46:21 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UvFhk-0002Y3-Us for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2013 00:46:20 +0100 Received: from smtpout5.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.80] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UvFhi-00050M-9b for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2013 00:46:19 +0100 Received: from AGB ([95.145.211.218]) by mwinf5d62 with ME id wnmG1l00G4jGl6f03nmG6y; Sat, 06 Jul 2013 01:46:17 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Graham" To: References: <1373065027.23832.YahooMailNeo@web133206.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1373065027.23832.YahooMailNeo@web133206.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2013 00:46:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Pete , though it was too quiet ... May be it uses spread spectrum techniques to enhance the profit known as the spreading gain But ... Gary uses Mini-whips for his grabber and I use two 20 ft alloy scaffold poles as a 40 ft vertical , as you can see , a good 10 db worse in s/n , may be its using near field technology ? [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.80 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: f8d160685865bb56f1be9345202faba0 Subject: Re: LF: Wellbrook RX loops Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_014B_01CE79E2.38E47870" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE, HTML_FONTCOLOR_RED,HTML_FONT_BIG,HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3347 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_014B_01CE79E2.38E47870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pete , though it was too quiet ...=20 May be it uses spread spectrum techniques to enhance the profit = known as the spreading gain=20 But ... Gary uses Mini-whips for his grabber and I use two = 20 ft alloy scaffold poles as a 40 ft vertical , as you can see = , a good 10 db worse in s/n , may be its using near field = technology ? but Tx slightly HF with the vert , then things seem to change = slightly , this must be caused by long skip on 7 ?=20 21:26 7038 G0NBD de VK3KCX Op2 10587 mi -19 dB in Melbourne with 13w +=20 21:26 7038 G0NBD de G4MDH Op2 139 mi -14 dB in Wootton Bassett, SW Eng = with 13w + I like the G2AVJ concept of near field arrays and vector = potentials rather than E/H and Maxwell made a slight errors = using a currant twice , funnily enough , I mentioned Prof = Cabbie CFA ( cross field Ae) [ remember the shifnell trials , = that found loading coils in the fibreglass casting] to some one a = while back , turned out he was in Imperial with him and he = agreed g2avj was right , but no one talks about it as it a good = way to have your phd thesis refused and if there are no E/H = then these E/H ae will not work , which sort of fits the CFA = story .. just because you can measure it , doesn't mean it really = there ..=20 Must be the its the silly season . mf/lf closed for the summer = ,=20 this must be magic then ? :- ) R7NT GW0EZY 2200m OPERA 3043 kms 21:36:03=20 R7NT RN3AGC 2200m OPERA 968 kms 23:17:18=20 R7NT RW3ADB 2200m OPERA 936 kms 23:17:19=20 PA0WMR GW0EZY 2200m OPERA 602 kms 22:14:17=20 PA0WMR G3XDV 2200m OPERA 383 kms 22:14:15=20 G3XDV GW0EZY 2200m OPERA 233 kms 21:19:16=20 From: M0FMT=20 Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 11:57 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Wellbrook RX loops Hi Graham Don't bring measurement and practical Ham Radio comparisons into this = you are fighting "Black Magic" and Voodoo. Its a commercial promotion = and specmanship with no real technical data to make an evaluation. Never = seen a schematic for one or an explanation why it would be better than a = "proper" antenna, an elevated electrode tuned against ground on the = frequency of interest. 73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX From: Graham To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Friday, 5 July 2013, 19:33 Subject: Fw: LF: Wellbrook RX loops There is a good example of Mini-whip V 40 ft end fed = vertical , db levels are the average over 32 mins , so that = would tend to give a realistic evaluation , as opposed to peak = , which would reflect one major incident during the time lime=20 Stations about 25 miles apart west<>east=20 G.. 23:02 136 G3XDV de G4WGT Op32 160 mi -12 dB in Chorley, IO83qo with = 0.3w + Inv-L 23:02 136 G3XDV de G0NBD Op32 163 mi -23 dB in Nr Liverpool with 0.3w = + Inv-L From: DENNIS EASTERLING=20 Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 5:26 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Wellbrook RX loops Hi Roger I use a Wellbrook Loop type ALA1530 (MW/HF) mounted 1m off the ground = and a PA0RDT mini-whip mounted about 7m above ground. Sometimes the = loop wins other times the miniwhip. The miniwhip is omnidirectional = and uses the e field, whereas the loop is directional and uses the = magnetic field. The miniwhip is more open to BC breakthough than the = loop but more sensitive. I tend to monitor with the miniwhip, and = switch to the loop after homing in on the signal if this helps. BC = breakthough is overcome using a simple series LC circuit tuned to the = required band at the RX end of the coax. The QRM at my QRT can be = horrendous, as I am only 100 yards from the OH lines on the East Coast = main railway line, surrounded by houses and a block of flats with = associated busy roads. My 'T' transmitting aerial 8m high is useless = for RX. I can fully recommend both miniwhip and Wellbrook Loop, both = of which cover from LF to 10m. For best results, I suppose a tuned = loop about 1m square has the edge, but not as convenient.=20 73 Dennis M0JXM From: Roger Lapthorn To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" ; = rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk=20 Sent: Friday, 5 July 2013, 7:00 Subject: LF: Wellbrook RX loops Can anyone advise, from actual use, how well a Wellbrook loop works = on 136 and 472kHz RX ? The excellent OIP2 and OIP3 figures and = directivity suggest one could be very useful.=20 73s Roger G3XBM ------=_NextPart_000_014B_01CE79E2.38E47870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Pete , though  it  was  too  quiet ... =
 
May be it  uses  spread  spectrum techniques = to =20 enhance the  profit  known   as  the =20 spreading  gain
 
But  ...   Gary  uses  = Mini-whips =20 for  his  grabber  and  I use  two  20 = ft =20 alloy  scaffold poles as  a 40  ft  vertical , = as =20 you  can  see  , a good  10 db worse  in = s/n  ,=20 may be  its  using  near field  = technology ?
 
but  Tx  slightly  HF with the  vert , = then =20 things  seem to  change  slightly , this  must  = be  caused by  long  skip  on 7 ?
 
21:26 7038 G0NBD=20 de VK3KCX Op2 10587 mi -19 dB in Melbourne with 13w + =
21:26 7038 G0NBD=20 de G4MDH Op2 139 mi -14 dB in Wootton Bassett, SW Eng with 13w=20 +
 
I=20 like the  G2AVJ   concept  of   near  = field   arrays  and  vector  potentials =20 rather  than  E/H  and Maxwell   made = a =20 slight  errors  using a  currant   twice =20 , funnily  enough  , I   mentioned  Prof=20 Cabbie   CFA  ( cross  field  Ae) [ remember = the =20 shifnell  trials , that found  loading  coils  in = the =20 fibreglass  casting]  to  some one a while = back  ,=20 turned  out  he was in Imperial  with  him  = and =20 he  agreed  g2avj  was right  , but  no  = one=20 talks  about  it  as it a  good  way  = to =20 have your  phd  thesis  refused  and if there =20 are  no  E/H then  these  E/H ae  will  = not =20 work  , which  sort of fits the  CFA   story .. = just  because  you  can  measure  it , = doesn't =20 mean it really  there ..
 
Must  be the  its  the silly  season  .=20 mf/lf  closed  for the  summer  ,
this must be  magic  then ?  :- )
 
 
R7NT GW0EZY 2200m OPERA 3043 kms 21:36:03
R7NT RN3AGC 2200m OPERA 968 kms 23:17:18
R7NT RW3ADB 2200m OPERA 936 kms 23:17:19
PA0WMR GW0EZY 2200m OPERA 602 kms 22:14:17
PA0WMR G3XDV 2200m OPERA 383 kms 22:14:15
G3XDV GW0EZY 2200m OPERA 233 kms 21:19:16
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

From: M0FMT
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 11:57 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: Wellbrook RX loops

Hi Graham
 
Don't bring = measurement and=20 practical Ham Radio comparisons into this you are fighting "Black Magic" = and=20 Voodoo. Its a commercial promotion and specmanship with no real = technical data=20 to make an evaluation. Never seen a schematic for one or an=20 explanation why it would be better than a "proper" = antenna, an=20 elevated electrode tuned against ground on the frequency of = interest.
73 es GL Pete M0FMT = IO91UX
From: Graham=20 <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
Sent: Friday, 5 = July 2013,=20 19:33
Subject: Fw: = LF:=20 Wellbrook RX loops

 
There  is a  good   example  of =20 Mini-whip   V  40 ft  end fed  vertical  = , db=20 levels  are  the  average over  32 mins  , = so =20 that  would  tend  to  give  a =20 realistic   evaluation  , as opposed = to  peak  ,=20 which  would  reflect one  major  incident=20  during  the  time lime
 
Stations  about  25  miles  apart =20 west<>east
 
G..
 
23:02 136 G3XDV de G4WGT Op32 160 mi -12 dB in Chorley, IO83qo = with=20 0.3w + Inv-L
23:02 136 G3XDV de G0NBD Op32 163 mi -23 dB in Nr Liverpool = with 0.3w=20 + Inv-L
 
 

Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Wellbrook RX loops

Hi Roger
 
I use a Wellbrook Loop type = ALA1530=20 (MW/HF)  mounted = 1m off the=20 ground and a PA0RDT mini-whip mounted about 7m above = ground.  =20 Sometimes the loop wins other times the miniwhip.   The = miniwhip is=20 omnidirectional and uses the e field, whereas the loop is directional = and uses=20 the magnetic field.   The miniwhip is more open to BC = breakthough=20 than the loop but more sensitive.   I tend to monitor with = the=20 miniwhip, and switch to the loop after homing in on the signal if this = helps.   BC breakthough is overcome using a simple series LC = circuit=20 tuned to the required band at the RX end of the coax.   The = QRM at=20 my QRT can be horrendous, as I am only 100 yards from the OH lines on = the East=20 Coast main railway line, surrounded by houses and a block of flats = with=20 associated busy roads.   My 'T' transmitting aerial 8m high = is=20 useless for RX.   I can fully recommend both miniwhip = and=20 Wellbrook Loop, both of which cover from LF to 10m.   For = best=20 results, I suppose a tuned loop about 1m square has the edge, but = not as=20 convenient. 
 
73 Dennis M0JXM

From: Roger Lapthorn=20 <rogerlapthorn@gmail.com>
To: = "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org"=20 <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk=20
Sent: Friday, 5 = July 2013,=20 7:00
Subject: LF: = Wellbrook=20 RX loops

Can anyone advise, from = actual=20 use,  how well a Wellbrook loop works on 136 and 472kHz RX ? The=20 excellent OIP2 and OIP3 figures and directivity suggest one could be = very=20 useful.

73s
Roger=20 = G3XBM




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