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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id fx15si2328121wic.56.2013.07.13.06.23.57 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2013 06:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UxxB7-0007eX-If for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2013 11:35:49 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UxxB7-0007eO-1T for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2013 11:35:49 +0100 Received: from mx5.utsp.utwente.nl ([130.89.2.33] helo=mxpool.utwente.nl) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UxxB5-0006ri-AC for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2013 11:35:47 +0100 Received: from ewi1614.ewi.utwente.nl (utwks06146.ad.utwente.nl [130.89.13.213]) by mxpool.utwente.nl (8.13.8) with ESMTP id r6DAZk1i012615 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2013 12:35:46 +0200 Received: by ewi1614.ewi.utwente.nl (Postfix, from userid 17643373) id 2C03E3C408F4; Sat, 13 Jul 2013 12:35:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 12:35:46 +0200 From: Pieter-Tjerk de Boer To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <20130713103545.GA13777@cs.utwente.nl> Mail-Followup-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <51DF33E4.7030101@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <51DF33E4.7030101@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mxpool.utwente.nl id r6DAZk1i012615 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 12:38:28AM +0200, Stefan Schäfer wrote: > When thinking about the sketch you recently attached (here attached again), > would you agree that here the shape of the probe is not irrelevant? I mean, a > round plate which is in a horizontal position to ground should cause less > potential difference (signal level) then a vertical thin wire with the same > capacity. [...] Content analysis details: (-0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain X-Scan-Signature: b1e5ebccbad86c8ca1fd46d24f0285de Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: LF: VK1OD's analysis of the MiniWhip antenna Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1847 On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 12:38:28AM +0200, Stefan Sch=E4fer wrote: > When thinking about the sketch you recently attached (here attached aga= in), > would you agree that here the shape of the probe is not irrelevant? I m= ean, a > round plate which is in a horizontal position to ground should cause le= ss > potential difference (signal level) then a vertical thin wire with the = same > capacity. No, I think the shape is mostly irrelevant, as long as the size is small compared to the wavelength. What is relevant is the average height of the probe, for some suitable definition of "average". This was also demonstrated by Roelof by his experiment with a horizontal and vertical whip, reported on this maillinglist in his mail of July 5th. > I try to compare it to a TX antenna. I see the TX antenna as a capacito= r > against ground. But the imaginary E field lines that go directly to gro= und are > "useless", except for reduction of the needed L for resonance. This can= be > described as a fixed capacitor parallel to the loading coil. Ony the fi= eld > lines that make a faaaaaaaar way will cause something that is described= by a > radiation resistance. > So back to the mini whip, the often stated 4 pF must be against "someth= ing > useful", which is not the grounded pole. It must catch some of the fiel= d lines > of the distant transmitter. And if the E fields of your sketch are from= this > transmitter it must be useful to cross as many as possible of the =E4qu= ipotential > lines, i.e. a long thin vertical wire should result in more signal volt= age as a > plate near the pole. It is physically impossible for the probe to cross multiple equipotential lines. Each equipotential line corresponds to a different potential. If several of them were to cross the same piece of metal, there would be a potential difference, i.e., a voltage, over the metal. That clearly can't be true, assuming it is a good conductor (and still in the static approximation, i.e., small compared to the wavelength). What will happen instead, is that _one_ equipotential line will hit the probe, and the others will bend around it, just like they bend around the pole. Note (or recall) that the electrical field lines are perpendicular to the equipotential lines. I (also) find it hard to make the connection between this reasoning about the mini-whip, and an LF transmit antenna. But I think that is mostly due to the fact that for the analysis of the mini-whip, we can use the static approximation (it would in theory work all the way down to DC), and that won't suffice for considering the radiation efficiency of the transmit antenna. Still, there is some analogy. If you put a large grounded conductor near an LF transmit antenna, you have more capacitance but not more radiation. Similarly, a large grounded conductor near the mini-whip probe will increase its capacitance, but it will also distort the field (similar to how the pole distorts the field), moving the equipotential lines "upward" and thus putting the probe at a potential closer to ground. 73, Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM