Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dh03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 40D223800009A; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 03:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UPoil-0001sG-Hu for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 07:41:27 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UPoik-0001s7-Em for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 07:41:26 +0100 Received: from imr-da05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.147]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UPoig-0006IJ-Tz for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 07:41:25 +0100 Received: from mtaout-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.65]) by imr-da05.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id A4FA01C0000BE for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 02:41:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from White (188-195-246-26-dynip.superkabel.de [188.195.246.26]) by mtaout-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPA id 6756AE00009B for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 02:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: "Markus Vester" To: References: <51640505.8010600@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <44E37B4DD1EE4EE1A2E67CCC1D5C79CE@White> <4132502B9D6F4A5CB85AC4055AA5851C@gnat> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:40:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 12.0.1606 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V12.0.1606 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1365576060; bh=tGdylAw1WqJ9UEeCM8c5Xx5A4VWgHZNMopbuxE6g/I0=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=UH8D/3xwQc47b79yVToaPxdhPs6Zv4LcoXH2csP1nlfm0ddtqlLxuBqT26lpmktGT BbnnFuKBX4PJdHrCWame/j3W5qsKAZiFftcWeqIWsSdD8P8T2Up5CEiqmucQMdM2iO h7o8l7k74pPsqnuZCZ2Nds2mNXhbmGBUE1Y0sjzM= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:431880320:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Alan, thanks very much for the detailed and interesting explanations! One thing I have always found hard to grasp was that charges can be stored up there for as long as several days. But it seems the clue is just the extremely low gas density, providing the ions with a long mean lifetime between collisions and recombinations. [...] Content analysis details: (-2.4 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [205.188.105.147 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (markusvester[at]aol.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -2.4 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 9eeaef25cbc091a07cc2ff31d4139552 Subject: Re: LF: Best results so far from Germany to Tasmania Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01CE35C7.1D78C0A0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtain-dh03.r1000.mx.aol.com ; domain : mx.aol.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d4117516516705a24 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CE35C7.1D78C0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan, thanks very much for the detailed and interesting explanations! = One thing I have always found hard to grasp was that charges can be = stored up there for as long as several days. But it seems the clue is = just the extremely low gas density, providing the ions with a long mean = lifetime between collisions and recombinations.=20 As you say, Loran was nonexistent anywhere south of Saudi Arabia (at = least in this century), and of course in 2010 American activity has = ceased except for a few sporadic tests. From watching the traces I = sometimes got the impression that when on above-average propagation = existed from east Asia, the maximum enhancement from America tended to = occur one or two nights later. But this was just a subjective notion, = and I should some day try to prove it by plotting hard data on = fieldstrength etc.=20 Best 73, Markus From: Alan Melia=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:50 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Best results so far from Germany to Tasmania Hi Markus, it would seem that the majority of the "hot" precipitated = electrons enter the ionosphere at the dawn and dusk edges where the = magnetosphere is distorted by the solar wind pressure. I believe they = enter at high latitudes and diffuse towards the equator. So I am = guessing that if there are any gradients they are pole towards the = equator. Certainly there is evidence from Laurence and Scott VE7TIL that = they see propagation collapse almost immediately after a geomag shock. I = dont have any data for worldwide distribution. In fact the only = plottable data is that for the N.Atlantic path to CFH. The plots from = Scott suggest that the decay of the attenuation after a shock is around = 5-6dB/hour . This suggests that when the Equatorial Ring Current is = exhausted the global ionosphere returns to the simple = photo-dissociation model with solar UV activation (what a load of = pretentious rot I just wrote :-)) ) I mean we get an absorbing daylight = D-region again which disappears as soon as it becomes dark. The solar = eclipse plots of a few yeas ago suggest the free daytime electrons = recombine in seconds due to the relatively high pressure 50 to 100km = altitude (it would still make you gasp a bit though :-)) ) and their = relatively low energy (just above the ionisation level) I wonder if your Loran data would give any information on worldwide = distribution? However I believe most of the Loran chains are in the = Northern Hemisphere (not sure if there are any around VK/ZL The Dst is not a measure of electrons in the D-layer, rather it is a = measure of the potential gradient driving the exchange between the Ring = Current and the Ionosphere . Thus very low Dst indicates a high = potential to drive lots of excess free electrons into the D-region. The = Dst recovery as the ring is depleted is approximately logarithmic as one = would expect for a diffusion process. I did wonder whether measurements = of total electron density would give any ideas. but I could not make any = progress with that, probably because most of the electrons will be in = the higher levels of the F-layer. Interestingly when a big storm occurs the excess electrons have the same = effect as a flare in daytime ! They enhance the daytime signal level for = one or perhaps at most two days. The are much hotter that the flare = generated electrons so the effect lasts longer but is much weaker than = the absorption effect at night. We may get some more ideas when the data from the latest satellite (that = found the 3rd Van Allan belt) finishes surveying the region. I have seen = it suggested that there are up to 7(I think it was) ion filled rings = reaching up to nine Earth diameters out. Unfortunately a good Dst doesnt guarantee good signals.....there is = something else at work. It may just be multipath but I cant get any = useful data yet. Maybe I need phase data. Best Wishes Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Markus Vester=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Cc: Vasily Savchenko ; Edgar J Twining ; David - VK2DDI=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:49 PM Subject: Re: LF: Best results so far from Germany to Tasmania Edgar, Stefan, this is an outstanding result! Great to see what is possible on LF, = given a good antenna, a quiet location, and patience paired with = persistence. Did you by chance have a look at the best SNR in the spectrum plot? = The fat parts of the trace might have been 12 or even 15 dB, in a 7.5 = mHz FFT. This would put it within easy reach of an Opera-32 correlation = detection, and possibly even close to a WSPR-15 decode. Alan, I assume that DST would affect attenuation globally, without = preference for one direction or another. Or could an eastern path be = better during one night, versus westward in another? Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) From: Stefan Sch=E4fer=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 2:09 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Cc: Vasily Savchenko ; Edgar J Twining ; David - VK2DDI=20 Subject: LF: Best results so far from Germany to Tasmania LF,=20 Last evening there was excellent LF propagation from EU to VK. Edgar = J. Twining (SWL) was watching the LF DX window for several weeks now. = The season on that path in spring (EU) 2013 was very poor and we already = thought that the season is over. However yesterday the path was open for = a exceptional long time and the S/N was very good! Transmissions were = done in DFCW-180. I've been on air for several days now and such a = result is most probably possible for 1 time in the year or maybe 2 = years. These are the results: My signal: = https://dl.dropbox.com/u/19882028/LF/DK7FC%20WR%20ver%20spectrum%20-18.PN= G DCF39: = https://dl.dropbox.com/u/19882028/LF/DCF39%20WR%20ver%20spectrum%20-14.PN= G DCF39 plot: = https://dl.dropbox.com/u/19882028/LF/DCF39%20WR%20ver%20plot%202013-04-08= %2021-30.jpg The path is 16806 km, = http://no.nonsense.ee/qthmap/?qth=3DQE37PD&from=3Djn49ik00wd It shows once again that it is always worth to transmit and to = receive/watch for exceptional conds(x) on the bands! Many thanks to Edgar for his continuous patience and interest to = receive on 137 kHz from the other side of the world! 73, Stefan/DK7FC ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CE35C7.1D78C0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alan, thanks very=20 much for the detailed and interesting explanations! One thing I = have always=20 found hard to grasp was that charges can be stored up there=20 for as long as several days. But it seems the clue is just the = extremely low gas density, providing the ions with a long mean lifetime = between=20 collisions and recombinations. 
 
As you say, Loran was nonexistent = anywhere=20 south of Saudi Arabia (at least in this century), and of = course in=20 2010 American activity has ceased except for a few sporadic=20 tests. From=20 watching the traces I sometimes got the impression that when on=20 above-average propagation existed from east Asia, the maximum = enhancement from=20 America tended to occur one or two nights later. But this was just a = subjective=20 notion, and I should some day try to prove it by plotting = hard=20 data on fieldstrength etc.
 
Best 73,
Markus

From: Alan Melia
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:50 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: Best results so far from Germany to=20 Tasmania

Hi Markus, it would seem that the = majority of the=20 "hot" precipitated electrons enter the ionosphere at the dawn and dusk = edges=20 where the magnetosphere is distorted by the solar wind pressure. I = believe they=20 enter at high latitudes and diffuse towards the equator. So I am = guessing that=20 if there are any gradients they are pole towards the equator. Certainly = there is=20 evidence from Laurence and Scott VE7TIL that they see propagation = collapse=20 almost immediately after a geomag shock. I dont have any data for = worldwide=20 distribution. In fact the only plottable data is that for the N.Atlantic = path to=20 CFH. The plots from Scott suggest that the decay of the attenuation = after a=20 shock is around 5-6dB/hour . This suggests that when the Equatorial = Ring=20 Current is exhausted  the global ionosphere returns to the simple=20 photo-dissociation model with solar UV activation (what a load of = pretentious=20 rot I just wrote :-))  ) I mean we get an absorbing daylight = D-region again=20 which disappears as soon as it becomes dark. The solar eclipse plots of = a few=20 yeas ago suggest the free daytime electrons recombine in seconds due to = the=20 relatively high pressure 50 to 100km altitude (it would still make you = gasp a=20 bit though :-))  ) and their relatively low energy (just above the=20 ionisation level)
 
I wonder if your Loran data would give = any=20 information on worldwide distribution? However I believe most of the = Loran=20 chains are in the Northern Hemisphere (not sure if there are any around=20 VK/ZL
 
The Dst is not a measure of electrons = in the=20 D-layer, rather it is a measure of the potential gradient driving = the=20 exchange between the Ring Current and the Ionosphere . = Thus very=20 low Dst indicates a high potential to drive lots of excess free = electrons=20 into the D-region. The Dst recovery as the ring is depleted is = approximately=20 logarithmic as one would expect for a diffusion process. I did wonder = whether=20 measurements of total electron density would give any ideas. but I could = not=20 make any progress with that, probably because most of the electrons will = be in=20 the higher levels of the F-layer.
 
Interestingly when a big storm occurs = the excess=20 electrons have the same effect as a flare in daytime ! They enhance the = daytime=20 signal level for one or perhaps at most two days. The are much hotter = that the=20 flare generated electrons so the effect lasts longer but is much weaker = than the=20 absorption effect at night.
 
We may get some more ideas when the = data from the=20 latest satellite (that found the 3rd Van Allan belt) finishes surveying = the=20 region. I have seen it suggested that there are up to 7(I think it = was) ion=20 filled rings reaching up to nine Earth diameters out.
 
Unfortunately a good Dst doesnt = guarantee good=20 signals.....there is something else at work. It may just be = multipath but I=20 cant get any useful data yet. Maybe I need phase data.
 
Best Wishes
Alan
G3NYK
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Markus=20 Vester
Cc: Vasily Savchenko ; Edgar J = Twining ; David -=20 VK2DDI
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 = 7:49=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Best results = so far from=20 Germany to Tasmania

Edgar, Stefan,
 
this is an outstanding result! Great = to=20 see what is possible on LF, given a good antenna, a quiet = location,=20 and patience paired with persistence.
 
Did you by chance have a look at the = best SNR in=20 the spectrum plot? The fat parts of the trace might have=20 been 12 or even 15 dB, in a 7.5 mHz FFT. This would put = it within easy reach of an Opera-32 correlation detection,=20 and possibly even close to a WSPR-15 decode.
 
Alan, I assume that DST would affect = attenuation=20 globally, without preference for one direction or another. Or = could an=20 eastern path be better during one night, versus westward in=20 another?
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 

From: Stefan = Sch=E4fer
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 2:09 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Cc: Vasily Savchenko ; Edgar J = Twining ; David - VK2DDI
Subject: LF: Best results so far from Germany to=20 Tasmania

LF, =

Last=20 evening there was excellent LF propagation from EU to VK. Edgar J. = Twining=20 (SWL) was watching the LF DX window for several weeks now. The season = on that=20 path in spring (EU) 2013 was very poor and we already thought that the = season=20 is over. However yesterday the path was open for a exceptional long = time and=20 the S/N was very good! Transmissions were done in DFCW-180. I've been = on air=20 for several days now and such a result is most probably possible for 1 = time in=20 the year or maybe 2 years.

These are the results:
My signal: = https://dl.dropbox.com/u/19882028/LF/DK7FC%20WR%20ver%20spectr= um%20-18.PNG
DCF39:=20 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/19882028/LF/DCF39%20WR%20ver%20spectr= um%20-14.PNG
DCF39=20 plot: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/19882028/LF/DCF39%20WR%20v= er%20plot%202013-04-08%2021-30.jpg

The=20 path is 16806 km, http://no.nonsense.ee/qthmap/?qth=3DQE37PD&from=3Djn49ik00wd
=
It=20 shows once again that it is always worth to transmit and to = receive/watch for=20 exceptional conds(x) on the bands!

Many thanks to Edgar for his = continuous patience and interest to receive on 137 kHz from the other = side of=20 the world!

73, Stefan/DK7FC
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CE35C7.1D78C0A0--