Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mb02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id C5E3138000096; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 06:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UPryD-0002Ob-W9 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:09:37 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UPryD-0002OS-1X for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:09:37 +0100 Received: from nm7-vm2.bt.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([212.82.99.126]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UPry9-00070h-G3 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:09:35 +0100 Received: from [212.82.98.47] by nm7.bt.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2013 10:09:12 -0000 Received: from [46.228.39.182] by tm8.bt.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2013 10:09:12 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp123.bt.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2013 10:09:12 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=s1024; t=1365588552; bh=+7FBY6frnAehZ2RS2eKCIsqZnAkocvK03DDhNTz6mgU=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-Rocket-Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MIMEOLE:X-Antivirus:X-Antivirus-Status; b=EzPF430g7WHu0v26NQJNBQ7B3sNXcz/9SbBAqUcsaqann7mRa5aztU1dM6fZSuCglntSbxfVpavziGnhKm/oHYH5lFwJyWjEIXt5Fw0rVibLyKystS6AyU9Rljcm71vJB/KUUZMphgspnmay4GjN3wGxhCn5gtDoheN/9l/oaO4= X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 533987.3277.bm@smtp123.bt.mail.ir2.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: kYJSKhIVM1k1f5KMETvy2LWZH9ilcP43KGBNsMpUbg6_sNm 9K_NHzPCjiot66xh9Ta661.Ga0rrXk8hk6P.73lzJBD3vP3tR1tY.dFsaA.5 CiKqkLQqwsKHwPyeMo43Y3y2AQnZZyun11r.3xcBxUqHKWVUwZgKIRJ6voCO dFScyXmPVnwp5IH1zwwp_uBUBgv4iN5ODA.0MJzFgfjIkcGIxVNuryXFkh96 XSG1I2kF2cEGIXbWDV1_e3Gws4HfpDXn8x_0cKLKkjUZKKww.HxSnNYHMRjK zdjDoU9ElmY_5q1sOd3f4uqeikPNJvt_VM1Rh5eRnuHygiQw77uzmz4NG9us PGyiHFXiFuiIdGIpGMKX9wVVYkbP7BZcko5bRYEwGCIha99oD_KU7R7VBcwi eMKx2j0yaSwq7iArJGyzW.VoGVcAWfpgmHjZihVCCWcNjxHWVN4RJdzmGayf BYoX1MVd710.DSTXeTprALR3L0LPDY4DvCBK3QiH3_tETlcIpzeKI45XpwYR dW2kM.KyDl42cHqLnFOPHGJOHkCmcZeRlPF2Uw.5exFRv8_9BzE7x5Ptvze5 U_w6bJLyjtrx51MON81DyuiylXqD3Js92k7bnTyhhrUHpKK8xq1Mex.oji92 7AWKtUyK2PSmeyxzJ8F86F8MckwOJbYsI05n9UfgpUl0g9_zoTWVjx8A- X-Yahoo-SMTP: fpz.2VeswBBs59bVshRPmMN51lcO2lgFRIvE4XTqE8dRwOxd70E- X-Rocket-Received: from gnat (alan.melia@86.149.140.116 with login) by smtp123.bt.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2013 10:09:12 +0000 UTC Message-ID: <37496A16FE3E425A8EE69AC8AB0A07B7@gnat> From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <51640505.8010600@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <44E37B4DD1EE4EE1A2E67CCC1D5C79CE@White> <4132502B9D6F4A5CB85AC4055AA5851C@gnat> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:04:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 130409-1, 09/04/2013), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Markus yes that puzzled me for years (having a feel for ion/electron lifetimes it didnt seem to make sense) BUT when you introduce a "magnetic bottle" which is filled on the impact of the CME and dribbled into the ionoshere daily it starts to make sense (Thanks here to Denis Gallagher on the VLF group who has a NASA email address for pointing me in the right direction and providing a extraordinarily good review paper as a reference.) [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [212.82.99.126 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 4944f2a6808b0a9d97eb2d90d3d0f26c Subject: Re: LF: Best results so far from Germany to Tasmania Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01CE35DB.21E30880" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.4 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtain-mb02.r1000.mx.aol.com ; domain : btinternet.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d601651653aac0b50 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CE35DB.21E30880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Markus yes that puzzled me for years (having a feel for ion/electron = lifetimes it didnt seem to make sense) BUT when you introduce a = "magnetic bottle" which is filled on the impact of the CME and dribbled = into the ionoshere daily it starts to make sense (Thanks here to Denis = Gallagher on the VLF group who has a NASA email address for pointing me = in the right direction and providing a extraordinarily good review paper = as a reference.) I think there is the possibility of "delays" but I am finding that there = do seem to be other factors. I am still puzzling over these. A high Dst = increases the probability of good conditions but doesnt guarantee them :-)) There is one further factor and that is signal leakage. If the = geomag conditions are very quiet for extended periods like during the = Solar min. signals seem to decrease, I have a feeling that some of the = longer lived ionisayion in the E-region may depend on the Ring Current = charge. After a long quiet period the night-time E-layer does not = "reflect" quite so well. Conditions then improve after a small event, = Kp=3D4, which would under normal conditions be insignificant, and = produces only small changes to the Dst. Alan ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Markus Vester=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 7:40 AM Subject: Re: LF: Best results so far from Germany to Tasmania Alan, thanks very much for the detailed and interesting explanations! = One thing I have always found hard to grasp was that charges can be = stored up there for as long as several days. But it seems the clue is = just the extremely low gas density, providing the ions with a long mean = lifetime between collisions and recombinations.=20 As you say, Loran was nonexistent anywhere south of Saudi Arabia (at = least in this century), and of course in 2010 American activity has = ceased except for a few sporadic tests. From watching the traces I = sometimes got the impression that when on above-average propagation = existed from east Asia, the maximum enhancement from America tended to = occur one or two nights later. But this was just a subjective notion, = and I should some day try to prove it by plotting hard data on = fieldstrength etc.=20 Best 73, Markus From: Alan Melia=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:50 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Best results so far from Germany to Tasmania Hi Markus, it would seem that the majority of the "hot" precipitated = electrons enter the ionosphere at the dawn and dusk edges where the = magnetosphere is distorted by the solar wind pressure. I believe they = enter at high latitudes and diffuse towards the equator. So I am = guessing that if there are any gradients they are pole towards the = equator. Certainly there is evidence from Laurence and Scott VE7TIL that = they see propagation collapse almost immediately after a geomag shock. I = dont have any data for worldwide distribution. In fact the only = plottable data is that for the N.Atlantic path to CFH. The plots from = Scott suggest that the decay of the attenuation after a shock is around = 5-6dB/hour . This suggests that when the Equatorial Ring Current is = exhausted the global ionosphere returns to the simple = photo-dissociation model with solar UV activation (what a load of = pretentious rot I just wrote :-)) ) I mean we get an absorbing daylight = D-region again which disappears as soon as it becomes dark. The solar = eclipse plots of a few yeas ago suggest the free daytime electrons = recombine in seconds due to the relatively high pressure 50 to 100km = altitude (it would still make you gasp a bit though :-)) ) and their = relatively low energy (just above the ionisation level) I wonder if your Loran data would give any information on worldwide = distribution? However I believe most of the Loran chains are in the = Northern Hemisphere (not sure if there are any around VK/ZL The Dst is not a measure of electrons in the D-layer, rather it is a = measure of the potential gradient driving the exchange between the Ring = Current and the Ionosphere . Thus very low Dst indicates a high = potential to drive lots of excess free electrons into the D-region. The = Dst recovery as the ring is depleted is approximately logarithmic as one = would expect for a diffusion process. I did wonder whether measurements = of total electron density would give any ideas. but I could not make any = progress with that, probably because most of the electrons will be in = the higher levels of the F-layer. Interestingly when a big storm occurs the excess electrons have the = same effect as a flare in daytime ! They enhance the daytime signal = level for one or perhaps at most two days. The are much hotter that the = flare generated electrons so the effect lasts longer but is much weaker = than the absorption effect at night. We may get some more ideas when the data from the latest satellite = (that found the 3rd Van Allan belt) finishes surveying the region. I = have seen it suggested that there are up to 7(I think it was) ion filled = rings reaching up to nine Earth diameters out. Unfortunately a good Dst doesnt guarantee good signals.....there is = something else at work. It may just be multipath but I cant get any = useful data yet. Maybe I need phase data. Best Wishes Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Markus Vester=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Cc: Vasily Savchenko ; Edgar J Twining ; David - VK2DDI=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:49 PM Subject: Re: LF: Best results so far from Germany to Tasmania Edgar, Stefan, this is an outstanding result! Great to see what is possible on LF, = given a good antenna, a quiet location, and patience paired with = persistence. Did you by chance have a look at the best SNR in the spectrum plot? = The fat parts of the trace might have been 12 or even 15 dB, in a 7.5 = mHz FFT. This would put it within easy reach of an Opera-32 correlation = detection, and possibly even close to a WSPR-15 decode. Alan, I assume that DST would affect attenuation globally, without = preference for one direction or another. Or could an eastern path be = better during one night, versus westward in another? Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) From: Stefan Sch=E4fer=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 2:09 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Cc: Vasily Savchenko ; Edgar J Twining ; David - VK2DDI=20 Subject: LF: Best results so far from Germany to Tasmania LF,=20 Last evening there was excellent LF propagation from EU to VK. Edgar = J. Twining (SWL) was watching the LF DX window for several weeks now. = The season on that path in spring (EU) 2013 was very poor and we already = thought that the season is over. However yesterday the path was open for = a exceptional long time and the S/N was very good! Transmissions were = done in DFCW-180. I've been on air for several days now and such a = result is most probably possible for 1 time in the year or maybe 2 = years. These are the results: My signal: = https://dl.dropbox.com/u/19882028/LF/DK7FC%20WR%20ver%20spectrum%20-18.PN= G DCF39: = https://dl.dropbox.com/u/19882028/LF/DCF39%20WR%20ver%20spectrum%20-14.PN= G DCF39 plot: = https://dl.dropbox.com/u/19882028/LF/DCF39%20WR%20ver%20plot%202013-04-08= %2021-30.jpg The path is 16806 km, = http://no.nonsense.ee/qthmap/?qth=3DQE37PD&from=3Djn49ik00wd It shows once again that it is always worth to transmit and to = receive/watch for exceptional conds(x) on the bands! Many thanks to Edgar for his continuous patience and interest to = receive on 137 kHz from the other side of the world! 73, Stefan/DK7FC ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CE35DB.21E30880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Markus yes that puzzled me for years = (having a=20 feel for ion/electron lifetimes it didnt seem to make sense) BUT when = you=20 introduce a "magnetic bottle" which is filled on the impact of the CME = and=20 dribbled into the ionoshere daily it starts to make sense (Thanks here = to Denis=20 Gallagher on the VLF group who has a NASA email address for pointing me = in the=20 right direction and providing a extraordinarily good review paper as a=20 reference.)
 
I think there is the possibility of = "delays" but I=20 am finding that there do seem to be other factors. I am still puzzling = over=20 these. A high Dst increases the probability of good conditions but = doesnt=20 guarantee them
:-))  There is one further factor = and that is=20 signal leakage. If the geomag conditions are very quiet for extended = periods=20 like during the Solar min. signals seem to decrease,  I have a = feeling that=20 some of the longer lived ionisayion in the E-region may depend on the = Ring=20 Current charge. After a long quiet period the night-time E-layer does = not=20 "reflect" quite so well. Conditions then improve after a small = event, Kp=3D4,=20 which would under normal conditions be insignificant, and produces only = small=20 changes to the Dst.
 
Alan
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Markus=20 Vester
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 = 7:40=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Best results = so far from=20 Germany to Tasmania

Alan, thanks very=20 much for the detailed and interesting explanations! One thing I = have=20 always found hard to grasp was that charges can be stored up = there=20 for as long as several days. But it seems the clue is just = the=20 extremely low gas density, providing the ions with a long mean = lifetime=20 between collisions and recombinations. 
 
As you say, Loran was = nonexistent anywhere=20 south of Saudi Arabia (at least in this century), and of = course in=20 2010 American activity has ceased except for a few sporadic=20 tests. From=20 watching the traces I sometimes got the impression that when on=20 above-average propagation existed from east Asia, the maximum = enhancement from=20 America tended to occur one or two nights later. But this was just a=20 subjective notion, and I should some day try to prove it=20 by plotting hard data on fieldstrength etc.
 
Best 73,
Markus

From: Alan Melia
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:50 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: Best results so far from Germany to=20 Tasmania

Hi Markus, it would seem that the = majority of the=20 "hot" precipitated electrons enter the ionosphere at the dawn and dusk = edges=20 where the magnetosphere is distorted by the solar wind pressure. I = believe=20 they enter at high latitudes and diffuse towards the equator. So I am = guessing=20 that if there are any gradients they are pole towards the equator. = Certainly=20 there is evidence from Laurence and Scott VE7TIL that they see = propagation=20 collapse almost immediately after a geomag shock. I dont have any data = for=20 worldwide distribution. In fact the only plottable data is that for = the=20 N.Atlantic path to CFH. The plots from Scott suggest that the decay of = the=20 attenuation after a shock is around 5-6dB/hour . This suggests = that when=20 the Equatorial Ring Current is exhausted  the global ionosphere = returns=20 to the simple photo-dissociation model with solar UV activation (what = a load=20 of pretentious rot I just wrote :-))  ) I mean we get an = absorbing=20 daylight D-region again which disappears as soon as it becomes dark. = The solar=20 eclipse plots of a few yeas ago suggest the free daytime electrons = recombine=20 in seconds due to the relatively high pressure 50 to 100km altitude = (it would=20 still make you gasp a bit though :-))  ) and their relatively low = energy=20 (just above the ionisation level)
 
I wonder if your Loran data would = give any=20 information on worldwide distribution? However I believe most of the = Loran=20 chains are in the Northern Hemisphere (not sure if there are any = around=20 VK/ZL
 
The Dst is not a measure of electrons = in the=20 D-layer, rather it is a measure of the potential gradient driving = the=20 exchange between the Ring Current and the Ionosphere . = Thus very=20 low Dst indicates a high potential to drive lots of excess free = electrons=20 into the D-region. The Dst recovery as the ring is depleted is = approximately=20 logarithmic as one would expect for a diffusion process. I did wonder = whether=20 measurements of total electron density would give any ideas. but I = could not=20 make any progress with that, probably because most of the electrons = will be in=20 the higher levels of the F-layer.
 
Interestingly when a big storm occurs = the excess=20 electrons have the same effect as a flare in daytime ! They enhance = the=20 daytime signal level for one or perhaps at most two days. The are much = hotter=20 that the flare generated electrons so the effect lasts longer but is = much=20 weaker than the absorption effect at night.
 
We may get some more ideas when the = data from the=20 latest satellite (that found the 3rd Van Allan belt) finishes = surveying the=20 region. I have seen it suggested that there are up to 7(I think it=20 was) ion filled rings reaching up to nine Earth diameters=20 out.
 
Unfortunately a good Dst doesnt = guarantee good=20 signals.....there is something else at work. It may just be = multipath but=20 I cant get any useful data yet. Maybe I need phase data.
 
Best Wishes
Alan
G3NYK
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Markus=20 Vester
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Cc: Vasily Savchenko ; Edgar J = Twining ; David -=20 VK2DDI
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 = 7:49=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Best results = so far=20 from Germany to Tasmania

Edgar, Stefan,
 
this is an outstanding result! = Great to=20 see what is possible on LF, given a good antenna, a quiet = location,=20 and patience paired with persistence.
 
Did you by chance have a look at = the best SNR=20 in the spectrum plot? The fat parts of the trace might = have=20 been 12 or even 15 dB, in a 7.5 mHz FFT. This would = put=20 it within easy reach of an Opera-32 correlation detection,=20 and possibly even close to a WSPR-15 decode.
 
Alan, I assume that DST would = affect=20 attenuation globally, without preference for one direction or = another. Or=20 could an eastern path be better during one night, versus = westward=20 in another?
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 

From: Stefan = Sch=E4fer=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 2:09 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Cc: Vasily Savchenko ; Edgar J = Twining ; David - VK2DDI
Subject: LF: Best results so far from Germany to=20 Tasmania

LF, =

Last=20 evening there was excellent LF propagation from EU to VK. Edgar J. = Twining=20 (SWL) was watching the LF DX window for several weeks now. The = season on=20 that path in spring (EU) 2013 was very poor and we already thought = that the=20 season is over. However yesterday the path was open for a = exceptional long=20 time and the S/N was very good! Transmissions were done in DFCW-180. = I've=20 been on air for several days now and such a result is most probably = possible=20 for 1 time in the year or maybe 2 years.

These are the = results:
My=20 signal: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/19882028/LF/DK7FC%20WR%20ver%20spectr= um%20-18.PNG
DCF39:=20 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/19882028/LF/DCF39%20WR%20ver%20spectr= um%20-14.PNG
DCF39=20 plot: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/19882028/LF/DCF39%20WR%20v= er%20plot%202013-04-08%2021-30.jpg

The=20 path is 16806 km, http://no.nonsense.ee/qthmap/?qth=3DQE37PD&from=3Djn49ik00wd
=
It=20 shows once again that it is always worth to transmit and to = receive/watch=20 for exceptional conds(x) on the bands!

Many thanks to Edgar = for his=20 continuous patience and interest to receive on 137 kHz from the = other side=20 of the world!

73,=20 Stefan/DK7FC
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