Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mk01.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 36F1338000097; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 19:30:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UDOiX-00024p-3v for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 00:29:53 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UDOiW-00024g-9y for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 00:29:52 +0000 Received: from nm8-vm5.bt.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([212.82.99.215]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UDOiT-0001fq-HU for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 00:29:51 +0000 Received: from [212.82.98.43] by nm8.bt.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 00:29:28 -0000 Received: from [46.228.39.167] by tm4.bt.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 00:29:28 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp108.bt.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 00:29:28 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=s1024; t=1362616168; bh=NRsFQIRaWu4508RmuH2c41zB+9ojB+brfNAcFlAcvP8=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-Antivirus:X-Antivirus-Status; b=OUskG6RWLZnDvChAfUdlhy8Y/X5dn5NhzDr5I0+kWnO5EiTW3wrzF74LK5YUp1IsjyTDCLY7J1Fg6oQCn5RF8qyv4YzynnqHtRg0p/a2A/U//FG2T3kRVt3ZfFTF4gNJGFfBf/dQB1/6H/Jq6N8O0uu2/u7jTLkGjxkFTdz7kcU= X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 506482.58855.bm@smtp108.bt.mail.ir2.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: xmLjgEoVM1ntpTUfV0vwkRDtwDyzAt4aqAeD1gFHPGMjl_f 88j.b52mxUn5ATcJmhyH62W0EhhHvPftWFzG79hMDysWqWa3dofCA8Zgj5uD AlQjJ2oh7sr6SgdnMHeX9uyswNcKGCAMQdBTTdnlos60RQ.7hQcnWMVkEtxD c3L21SGEl2wP94.InkRrP9PvJMLO255i.K3p2W5w7ZfbOBj1SAV_fgXkO7mJ _uhIbsbbF0bG.OC5M19xP2uYDd7zHRnLxOqzYaHoBr8fnrhDTPXiVH2SQCFG mHY3zzlo5sCytKQY0XGb5Q_5Wd03Q95J0Jtf8P_h4o7n3WHnyT2RPXFb6V4H foqhGqBxnfRO6FQwqO878fqfKDeX39_XOOed8j6XBOkJCkKwHNtYM1JHezCn IXs1FxaWdiSVvQVGgzD0MPYJkoKZxCfki8PGncJFD_37jzXJ3KnSmAZkWI3m o0qG9G5B8YQ-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: fpz.2VeswBBs59bVshRPmMN51lcO2lgFRIvE4XTqE8dRwOxd70E- Received: from gnat (alan.melia@86.171.39.137 with login) by smtp108.bt.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 07 Mar 2013 00:29:28 +0000 UTC Message-ID: From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <51371E11.6020502@psk31.plus.com> <513746F3.7090508@psk31.plus.com> <8A53C1DCE6BB4017B85B76DD1CB554EE@gnat> <51379E81.4060205@psk31.plus.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 22:59:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 130306-1, 06/03/2013), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Eddie I did hear of the polarised solenoid losing their magnetism, but not in those circumstances, interesting! Did it recover or did it need repolarising or replacement? I had a couple of Mod 54 that were 7E with a cranked frame (makes the paper easierto read) and an all-over very effective silence cover ex NCB I think. [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [212.82.99.215 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines X-Scan-Signature: 917bb99d4b5d86797eb255ea29aa077f Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0111_01CE1ABE.4D9FCDB0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.4 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtain-mk01.r1000.mx.aol.com ; domain : btinternet.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d61855137dfaf2dcc X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0111_01CE1ABE.4D9FCDB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eddie I did hear of the polarised solenoid losing their magnetism, = but not in those circumstances, interesting! Did it recover or did it = need repolarising or replacement? I had a couple of Mod 54 that were 7E = with a cranked frame (makes the paper easierto read) and an all-over = very effective silence cover ex NCB I think. Alan ----- Original Message -----=20 From: g3zjo=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 7:52 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol Hi Alan Yes interesting. I had a Creed 7B? Rattler as well as my Z80 microprocessor set up, so = I kept compatible with the mechanical methods. The Creed was in the = garage and I sent to it via co-ax for any hard copy and also printing = tickets for local do's on card, a man with a printer was a rarity. I wonder if you ever came across a problem I had one winter, the Creed = stopped printing and I found that the magnet had permanently lost its = magnetism due to extreme cold. 73 Eddie On 06/03/2013 19:03, Alan Melia wrote:=20 Hi Eddie, we were using line machines for a purpose other than that = for which they were designed :-)) The way round this was to have some = "special" operating methods which got lost when the ZX80 came along.=20 On HF I remember sending RlsRlsR at the begining of an over to = ensure that the receiving machine had not slipped into figure shift due = to noise. On weak signals it was common to insert lots of extra ls. The = standard end of line was CRLFCR to ensure the carriage had time to get = back to the stop, before the text started. Many of the "ZX" ops didnt = send any CR or LF at all because their display wrapped......the Creed = didn't!! The QSO finished as a square black block at the end of the line. All good fun. My mate G3YKB used to be on the LF reflector he was editor of the = BARTG newsletter around 1970. Alan=20 G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: g3zjo=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:38 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol On 06/03/2013 13:14, Minto Witteveen wrote:=20 That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it = seems) told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original message = below. But it is the other way around. But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender = and receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to agree. And it seems that the current consensus is mark =3D highest tone = =3D highest frequency. So USB if AFSK is used. Yes yes. BTW regarding missing the first character 's. In the mechanical = days did we not send CR/LF first to get things going? I have seen the = software have problems during the recent tests, printing Numbers instead = of Letters. This can be alleviated by sending 46RY first, 46 I think = being RY with LetFig set wrong. Eddie 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Alan Melia=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) with mechanical 'printers, the = highest RF frequency was Mark (or idle tone) It was independent of = which sideband was used. I think this was also the mode used by the = commercial stations Remember only European lines used bi-polar signalling. The US = used a 20mA mark and no current for space. A mechanical machine of = either type would chatter if the mechanism was not held in Mark. Timing = was mechanical and stop-start was necessary to maintain character timing = sync. with simple mechanical governors. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Minto Witteveen=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:09 AM Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol Hmm might this be because =E2=80=98in the old days=E2=80=99 = (amateur) RTTY was done with the rig in LSB mode using AFSK? With mark at 2125 Hz and space at 2295 hz and mark being the = idling position, when using LSB the actual transmitted frequencies would = be =E2=80=98swapped=E2=80=99 (reversed)=20 So MTTY seems to assume rig at USB, while all (all?) others = assume LSB=E2=80=A6 Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. amateur = reversed, as in AFSK on USB). I just checked my PIC code and I have = mark at high (DDS_BASE + 85 Hz) and space at low (DDS_BASE). This then = gets swapped around by fldigi because I listen (via websdr) in = USB=E2=80=A6 This explains why fldigi decodes me (and Stefan) just = right. This is of course based on the assumption that = =E2=80=98right=E2=80=99 means AFSK on LSB, that the space must be the = high tone AND the low(est) frequency. What _is_ the consensus (if any)? 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: g3zjo=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: RTTY Protocol Graham Just confirmed by test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all = other Software. Others idle on the high tone MMTTY idles on the low, = unless the REV is pressed. From Wiki the upper tone used for idle condition (MARK).=20 Another site says You also have to switch the correct phase position (whether = the lower or higher frequency carrier in frequency modulation = corresponds to "Mark" or "space"). Mind you a Ham education site on the subject says. Remember that bfo=E2=80=99s help filter out the carrier waves = to allow for the original signals to come through Eddie ------=_NextPart_000_0111_01CE1ABE.4D9FCDB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Hi Eddie I did hear of the polarised = solenoid=20 losing their magnetism, but not in those circumstances, interesting! Did = it=20 recover or did it need repolarising or replacement? I had a couple of = Mod 54=20 that were 7E with a cranked frame (makes the paper easierto read) and an = all-over very effective silence cover ex NCB I think.
 
Alan
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 g3zjo=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 = 7:52=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY = Protocol

Hi Alan

Yes interesting.

I had a Creed = 7B?=20 Rattler as well as my Z80 microprocessor set up, so I kept compatible = with the=20 mechanical methods. The Creed was in the garage and  I sent to it = via=20 co-ax for any hard copy and also printing tickets for local do's on = card, a=20 man with a printer was a rarity.

I wonder if you ever came = across a=20 problem I had one winter, the Creed stopped printing and I found that = the=20 magnet had permanently lost its magnetism due to extreme = cold.

73=20 Eddie

On 06/03/2013 19:03, Alan Melia wrote:=20
Hi Eddie, we were using line = machines for a=20 purpose other than that for which they were designed :-)) = The way=20 round this was to have some "special" operating methods which got = lost when=20 the ZX80 came along.
 
On HF I remember sending RlsRlsR at = the=20 begining of an over to ensure that the receiving machine had not = slipped=20 into figure shift due to noise. On weak signals it was common to = insert lots=20 of extra ls. The standard end of line was CRLFCR to ensure the = carriage had=20 time to get back to the stop, before the text started. Many of the = "ZX" ops=20 didnt send any CR or LF at all because their display = wrapped......the=20 Creed didn't!!
The QSO finished as a square black = block at the=20 end of the line.
 
All good fun.
My mate G3YKB used to be on the LF = reflector he=20 was editor of the BARTG newsletter around 1970.
 
Alan
G3NYK
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 g3zjo
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, = 2013 1:38=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY=20 Protocol

On 06/03/2013 13:14, Minto Witteveen wrote:=20
That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy = source it=20 seems) told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original = message=20 below.
But it is the other way around.
 
But it is only independent of the sideband used if both = sender and=20 receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to = agree.
And it seems that the current consensus is mark =3D highest = tone =3D=20 highest frequency. So USB if AFSK is=20 used.
Yes yes.

BTW regarding = missing=20 the first character 's. In the mechanical days did we not send = CR/LF first=20 to get things going? I have seen the software have problems during = the=20 recent tests, printing Numbers instead of Letters. This can be = alleviated=20 by sending 46RY first, 46 I think being RY with LetFig set=20 wrong.

Eddie

 
73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca
 
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Alan Melia
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) = with=20 mechanical 'printers, the highest RF frequency was Mark (or idle = tone)  It was independent of which sideband was used. I = think this=20 was also the mode used by the commercial stations
Remember only European lines = used bi-polar=20 signalling. The US used a 20mA mark and no current for space. A=20 mechanical machine of either type would chatter if the mechanism = was not=20 held in Mark. Timing was mechanical and stop-start was necessary = to=20 maintain character timing sync. with simple mechanical=20 governors.
 
Alan G3NYK
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Minto=20 Witteveen
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =
Sent: Wednesday, March = 06, 2013=20 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY=20 Protocol
 

Hmm might this be because =E2=80=98in the old = days=E2=80=99  (amateur) RTTY was = done with=20 the rig in LSB mode using AFSK?
With mark at 2125 Hz and = space at=20 2295 hz and mark being the idling position, when using LSB the = actual=20 transmitted frequencies would be =E2=80=98swapped=E2=80=99 = (reversed)
So MTTY=20 seems to assume rig at USB, while all (all?) others assume=20 LSB=E2=80=A6

Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. = amateur=20 reversed, as in AFSK on USB). =20 I just checked my PIC code and I have mark at high = (DDS_BASE +=20 85 Hz) and space at low (DDS_BASE). This then gets swapped = around by=20 fldigi because I listen (via websdr) in USB=E2=80=A6 This = explains why fldigi=20 decodes me (and Stefan) just = right.

This is of course based on the assumption that = =E2=80=98right=E2=80=99=20 means AFSK on LSB, that the space must be the high tone AND = the=20 low(est) frequency.
What _is_ the consensus (if=20 any)?

73=E2=80=99s Minto = pa3bca

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: g3zjo
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44
Subject: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
Graham

Just=20 confirmed by test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all other = Software.=20 Others idle on the high tone MMTTY idles on the low, unless = the REV is=20 pressed.


From Wiki
the upper = tone=20 used for idle condition (MARK). =

Another site=20 says
You also have to switch the correct phase = position=20 (whether the lower or higher frequency carrier in frequency = modulation=20 corresponds to "Mark" or "space").

Mind you a = Ham=20 education site on the subject says.
Remember that = bfo=E2=80=99s help=20 filter out the carrier waves to allow for the original signals = to come=20 through

Eddie



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