Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mi04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id B1D4F380000A3; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 05:31:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UCp8s-0005XZ-2h for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 10:30:42 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UCp8r-0005XQ-6j for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 10:30:41 +0000 Received: from smtpout3.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.59] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UCp8o-0007Ru-1P for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 10:30:40 +0000 Received: from AGB ([2.26.46.177]) by mwinf5d35 with ME id 7mWH1l0013pMz2S03mWHou; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 11:30:17 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Graham" To: References: <29F16795A3494CEC9378B59EC30CC400@PcMinto> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 10:30:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Ok Minto Ah the full story 'wmr was I was monitoring tween sdr and his signal started , so I had to open the Opera software , switch on the ft897 .. change the Ae and set 477 op4 .. so I must of just recorded just over 50 % , as the s/n is average , then the signal will show lower [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.59 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 76d9bc79bd6387ba51a2380ecf8bbed1 Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY tonight. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0052_01CE198C.6DD53C10" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=CASHCASHCASH,HTML_40_50, HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_FONTCOLOR_RED,HTML_MESSAGE,LINES_OF_YELLING, LINES_OF_YELLING_2,MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d7b8c5135c9703fea X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01CE198C.6DD53C10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok Minto Ah the full story 'wmr was I was monitoring tween sdr and = his signal started , so I had to open the Opera software , = switch on the ft897 .. change the Ae and set 477 op4 .. so = I must of just recorded just over 50 % , as the s/n is average = , then the signal will show lower=20 But the Op system gives the s/n in 2.4 KHz pass band , I think = at that time local noise was very high ... which reduces the = final s/n level=20 Yes skip range changes quickly so its possible that was also = lowering the signal=20 rtty is ok for a local chat , from multipsk rtty is listed as = -5 dB s/n , the only modes that really work are the mfsk based = ones , but these need audio to rf translation , other problem = is the interleave time , qsb on MF is much longer than HF , where = most of the modes are profiled for ....packet would be the best = , may be we can get Stefan to act as the mid-eu node : ) 73-Graham G0NBD From: Minto Witteveen=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:04 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: RTTY tonight. Graham, Well it has been an interesting experiment, including writing the RTTY = software for the PIC. But I do not think that RTTY will ever be one of = the most used modes on 472. Although DSP software (like fldigi) can do = magic in decoding even barely audible RTTY signals it is probably too = much hit and miss on 472. My OP4 being only 2 dB down on pa0wmr=E2=80=99s signal is a big = surprise. Pa0wmr has a big antenna (I remember something like a 40 x 40 = mtr loop, 10 meters high all above water!!) and he is at least 15 dB = stronger than me on Twente Web SDR (about the same distance from = Twente). There is just more than an hour time difference between the = decodes, but could propagation explain 15+ dB? Minto pa3bca -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Graham=20 Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 23:34 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY tonight. Yes these beacons are deceptive .......but ros-mf-2 would print = at that level , needs sdr or audio/rf translation=20 well |Ae hr is at the moment end fed 40 ft vert , 2 inch = alloy tube , noise level is low ( local something =3D off ) only = using the ft897 , but I can see beacon traces ,LF of the Opera = qrg , so its not that bad=20 22:08 477 PA3BCA Op4 -29 dB 20:50 477 PA0WMR Op4 -27 dB Its really down to luck and skip as to making long range qso on = 500 , the skip range changes , so you can have a qso in the = window , before it moves on=20 tween sdr just now =20 TTTSULDMCLKSMDCLKYMDCLSMDCK,$:(22'''8'98'$398'23$98'4$:98'98'$298$'2398$'= 2389$$2938':$$$,:,'$''$'$'$':' ;646'646 PEBCA JO21;10 VA3BCA PIC&AD9850DDS&0.1W ERP PLS RPRT RSGB LF-GROUP QQ G.. From: Minto Witteveen=20 Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 10:21 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: RTTY tonight. Ouch! No RTTY qso with you then on 478 :-) My antenna is real c**p On the other hand... I did have several CW QSO=E2=80=99s with EI0CF and = SM6BGP so at least something is possible.=20 THEY however have impressive antenna=E2=80=99s..... 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Graham=20 Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 23:11 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RE: Re: RTTY tonight. 22:08 477 PA3BCA de G0NBD Op4 -29 dB in Wallasey Minto , that's + 1 dB from the bottom !=20 73-G.. From: Minto Witteveen=20 Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 9:56 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RE: Re: RTTY tonight. Hi Marco, Thanks for the report. 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Marco=20 Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 22:43 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: RE: Re: RTTY tonight. Hello Minto, some partial copy here: PICJLWS &850/$!'4?.1W ERP PLS RPRT YSGD- 35 T PA3BCA vy73 Marco, DD7PC -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Minto Witteveen Sent: Montag, 4. M=C3=A4rz 2013 22:27 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: RTTY tonight. Might have been me... I can however decode my own signal via Twente WebSDR. As for rtty settings:=20 My PIC program now uses: SendRTTY(478160, 50, 85); So space freq =3D 478160, 50 baud, shift 85 Hz so mark freq is = 478160+85 =3D 478245 Minto pa3bca = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Graham=20 Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 22:13 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RTTY tonight. One low level rtty signal monitored at tween-sdr , but not = able to attempt decdoe =20 What was the final shift/baud rate + qrg ( mid tone ? = Mark qrg ? dial set usb + audio tone , audio tone mid band , = audio tone Mark ? channel mid qrg ) or just set wspr-2 and retire to pub ? G. From: g3zjo=20 Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 7:43 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RTTY tonight. FB Stefan On 04/03/2013 13:54, Stefan Sch=C3=A4fer wrote:=20 Eddie,=20 I just installed the program. Works. Of course it works, it is a = Windows version! ;-) I thought of you when I read this in a mailing I received earlier. We make do with Windows, but it isn't perfect. In fact, Windows = computers can be extremely annoying. They're full of all sorts of = annoying features that just get in our way and slow us down, distracting = us from getting work done or doing whatever else we want to do. We'll = help you disable some of the worst Windows annoyances. My sentiments entirely and one day it has to go to be replaced by = something modern. Just mentioned in passing no debates please. :-)=20 Now, are you prepared to listen for me? This evening i would like to = make a QSO, if this is possible. However the data rate is quite high so = i assume you need a relative high power to keep the error rate low. Yes I will listen for you no problem, let me know on here when you = want to try. Yes the data bits do not stay long in the same place so it = is for you QRO guys or short distance and medium distance with lifts for = the QRP'rs. Which baud rate and frequency shift is recommended and which = frequency? Follow Gary and be compatible seems sensible, Baud rate used is 50 = shift 85 Hz QRG 478.200KHz set you baud rate and shift in Menu - MODE - = RTTY - Opions at the bottom of the list. I look forward to seeing you sigs. 73 Eddie=20 73, Stefan/DK7FC E-Mail ist virenfrei. Von AVG =C3=BCberpr=C3=BCft - www.avg.de Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virendatenbank: 2641/6147 - Ausgabedatum: = 04.03.2013=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01CE198C.6DD53C10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok Minto
 
Ah the  full  story  'wmr     = was =20 I was  monitoring  tween sdr  and  his  = signal =20 started  , so  I had to    open the  Opera = software , switch on the  ft897  .. change the =20 Ae     and   set  477  op4  = ..=20 so  I must of  just   recorded  just =  over=20 50  %  , as the  s/n is  average , then  = the =20 signal  will  show  lower
 
But the  Op system  gives  the  s/n in  = 2.4=20 KHz  pass  band  , I think  at  that  = time =20 local noise  was very  high  ...  which  = reduces =20 the  final  s/n level
 
Yes  skip  range   changes  = quickly  =20 so  its possible  that  was  also  = lowering =20 the  signal
 
rtty is ok for  a  local  chat  , from=20 multipsk   rtty  is  listed  as  -5 = dB =20 s/n   , the only modes that  really  work  = are=20 the  mfsk  based  ones  , but  these  = need =20 audio  to  rf  translation   ,  = other =20 problem is the  interleave  time , qsb on MF is  much = longer=20 than  HF , where  most of the  modes are  = profiled  for=20 ....packet  would  be  the  best  , may = be =20 we  can  get Stefan to  act  as the  = mid-eu  node=20 : )
 
73-Graham
G0NBD

From: Minto Witteveen
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:04 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: LF: Re: RTTY tonight.

Graham,
Well it has been an interesting experiment, = including=20 writing the RTTY software for the PIC. But I do not think that RTTY will = ever be=20 one of the most used modes on 472. Although DSP software (like fldigi) = can do=20 magic in decoding even barely audible RTTY signals it is probably too = much hit=20 and miss on 472.

My OP4 being only 2 dB down on pa0wmr=E2=80=99s signal is = a big surprise.=20 Pa0wmr has a big antenna (I remember something like a 40 x 40 mtr loop, = 10=20 meters high all above water!!) and he is at least 15 dB stronger than me = on=20 Twente Web SDR (about the same distance from Twente). There is just more = than an=20 hour time difference between the decodes, but could propagation explain = 15+=20 dB?

Minto pa3bca

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Graham
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 23:34
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY tonight.
 
 
Yes these beacons  are  deceptive .......but =20 ros-mf-2   would  print  at  that  = level  , needs   sdr  or  = audio/rf  =20 translation
 
well  |Ae  hr  is   at the =20 moment   end fed 40  ft vert ,  2 inch =20 alloy   tube ,  noise level  is  low  (=20 local  something  =3D off ) only  using  the  = ft897 =20 , but  I can see  beacon  traces  ,LF of the =20 Opera  qrg  , so its not  that  bad
 

22:08 477 PA3BCA Op4 -29 dB

20:50 477 PA0WMR Op4 -27 dB

 
Its really  down to  luck and  skip  as = to =20 making   long range qso  on 500  , the  = skip =20 range  changes  , so  you  can have a  = qso  in=20 the  window  , before  it  moves  on
 
tween sdr  just  now 
 
TTTSULDMCLKSMDCLKYMDCLSMDCK,$:(22'''8'98'$398'23$98'4$:98'98'$298$'2= 398$'2389$$2938':$$$,:,'$''$'$'$':'
;646'646=20 PEBCA JO21;10 VA3BCA PIC&AD9850DDS&0.1W ERP PLS RPRT=20 RSGB
LF-GROUP
QQ
 
 
G..
 
From: Minto Witteveen
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 10:21 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: LF: Re: RTTY tonight.
 
Ouch!
 
No RTTY qso with you then on 478 :-)
My antenna is real c**p
On the other hand... I did have several CW QSO=E2=80=99s with EI0CF = and SM6BGP so=20 at least something is possible.
THEY however have impressive antenna=E2=80=99s.....
 
73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Graham
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 23:11
Subject: Re: LF: RE: Re: RTTY tonight.
 

22:08 477 PA3BCA de G0NBD Op4 -29 dB in Wallasey

Minto , that's  + 1 dB  from = the  bottom !=20

73-G..

 

 
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: LF: RE: Re: RTTY tonight.
 
Hi Marco,
Thanks for the report.
 
73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca
 
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Marco
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 22:43
Subject: LF: RE: Re: RTTY tonight.
 
Hello=20 Minto,
some=20 partial copy here:
 
PICJLWS &850/$!'4?.1W ERP PLS RPRT = YSGD-
35  T
PA3BCA
 
vy73
Marco,=20 DD7PC
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Minto=20 Witteveen
Sent: Montag, 4. M=C3=A4rz 2013 = 22:27
To:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: Re: RTTY=20 tonight.

Might have been me...
I can however decode my own signal via Twente WebSDR.
As for rtty settings:
My PIC program now uses: SendRTTY(478160, 50, 85);
So space freq =3D 478160, 50 baud, shift 85 Hz so mark freq is = 478160+85 =3D=20 478245
 
Minto pa3bca
 
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Graham
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 22:13
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY tonight.
 
One  low  level  rtty  signal  = monitored =20 at  tween-sdr   , but  not  able to = attempt =20 decdoe 
 
What  was the  final    shift/baud  = rate  +   qrg    ( mid  tone = ?  Mark=20 qrg ? dial  set  usb  + audio  tone  , = audio =20 tone mid  band  , audio tone Mark ? channel  mid =20 qrg  )
 
or just  set  wspr-2  and  retire   = to  pub  ?
 
G.
 
From: g3zjo
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY tonight.
 
FB Stefan

On 04/03/2013 13:54, Stefan = Sch=C3=A4fer wrote:=20
Eddie,

I just installed the program. Works. Of = course it=20 works, it is a Windows version! ;-)
I thought of you = when I=20 read this in a mailing I received earlier.

We make do with Windows, but it isn't = perfect. In=20 fact, Windows computers can be extremely annoying. They're full of = all sorts=20 of annoying features that just get in our way and slow us down, = distracting=20 us from getting work done or doing whatever else we want to do. = We'll help=20 you disable some of the worst Windows annoyances.
My = sentiments entirely and one day it has to go to be replaced by = something=20 modern.
Just mentioned in passing no debates please. :-)

Now, are you prepared to listen for me? This = evening i would=20 like to make a QSO, if this is possible. However the data rate is = quite high=20 so i assume you need a relative high power to keep the error rate=20 low.
Yes I will listen for you no problem, let me know = on here=20 when you want to try. Yes the data bits do not stay long in the same = place so=20 it is for you QRO guys or short distance and medium distance with = lifts for=20 the QRP'rs.

Which baud rate and frequency shift is recommended = and which=20 frequency?
Follow Gary and be compatible seems = sensible, Baud=20 rate used is 50 shift 85 Hz QRG 478.200KHz set you baud rate and shift = in Menu=20 - MODE - RTTY - Opions at the bottom of the list.

I look = forward to=20 seeing you sigs.

73 Eddie

73,=20 Stefan/DK7FC


E-Mail ist = virenfrei.
Von AVG=20 =C3=BCberpr=C3=BCft - www.avg.de
Version: 2013.0.2899=20 / Virendatenbank: 2641/6147 - Ausgabedatum: 04.03.2013=20

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