Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mc03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 8CA4E380000B2; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:26:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UDEBi-00061S-49 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:15:18 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UDEBh-00061I-6x for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:15:17 +0000 Received: from mail-ee0-f49.google.com ([74.125.83.49]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UDEBd-0006MB-Qg for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:15:16 +0000 Received: by mail-ee0-f49.google.com with SMTP id d41so5502732eek.36 for ; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 05:14:49 -0800 (PST) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:importance :x-mailer:x-mimeole; bh=lxTGzO0xkTXIqtdoDLYxSiMLh1ryfiWHIwU2jhMi32k=; b=JqtGXin4h/eUYLazE5ryce3SB5Erlvy4iSMS5dqO2AjUArxh6aHQzeqST3Fgh4sFR9 dI4SfDI6VFOunYG7XaWhCRcOfmSL/sS1tdufzK7K4lYiif+HBbwV6VKB332s/N9JUL/9 A1j1K/azrTClsKQRbZNCUZbEp3AO8/m35MxCwigzBAF7GkLsWsdPob5C/umEt5xrZTK8 eBS+zPb8g3oPJIxlOVcCzcQgq5h2TwR4/kbee+vgL3x5IXqpPsjbpYMfL4ehKU3saug7 KZw9S9YF/sks84Ts2FUx0yvfUddcocMBDo097KouKvAdkA3ZZ+MA2fVVnD+sJHNBQnpl RdxQ== X-Received: by 10.14.225.72 with SMTP id y48mr61357764eep.45.1362575688855; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 05:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from PcMinto (dhcp-077-248-065-057.chello.nl. [77.248.65.57]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t4sm42423143eel.0.2013.03.06.05.14.47 (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Mar 2013 05:14:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: From: Minto Witteveen To: References: <51371E11.6020502@psk31.plus.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 14:14:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it seems) told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original message below. But it is the other way around. But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender and receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to agree. And it seems that the current consensus is mark = highest tone = highest frequency. So USB if AFSK is used. [...] Content analysis details: (-0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [74.125.83.49 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (minto.witteveen[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 396a95bbad9af60b2ee566edcd35b39e Subject: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B9_01CE1A74.F4FEA260" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtain-mc03.r1000.mx.aol.com ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d604b51374414694b X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B9_01CE1A74.F4FEA260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it seems) = told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original message below. But it is the other way around. But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender and = receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to agree. And it seems that the current consensus is mark =3D highest tone =3D = highest frequency. So USB if AFSK is used. 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Alan Melia=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol >From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) with mechanical 'printers, the highest = RF frequency was Mark (or idle tone) It was independent of which = sideband was used. I think this was also the mode used by the commercial = stations Remember only European lines used bi-polar signalling. The US used a = 20mA mark and no current for space. A mechanical machine of either type = would chatter if the mechanism was not held in Mark. Timing was = mechanical and stop-start was necessary to maintain character timing = sync. with simple mechanical governors. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Minto Witteveen=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:09 AM Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol Hmm might this be because =E2=80=98in the old days=E2=80=99 (amateur) = RTTY was done with the rig in LSB mode using AFSK? With mark at 2125 Hz and space at 2295 hz and mark being the idling = position, when using LSB the actual transmitted frequencies would be = =E2=80=98swapped=E2=80=99 (reversed)=20 So MTTY seems to assume rig at USB, while all (all?) others assume = LSB=E2=80=A6 Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. amateur reversed, as = in AFSK on USB). I just checked my PIC code and I have mark at high = (DDS_BASE + 85 Hz) and space at low (DDS_BASE). This then gets swapped = around by fldigi because I listen (via websdr) in USB=E2=80=A6 This = explains why fldigi decodes me (and Stefan) just right. This is of course based on the assumption that =E2=80=98right=E2=80=99 = means AFSK on LSB, that the space must be the high tone AND the low(est) = frequency. What _is_ the consensus (if any)? 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: g3zjo=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: RTTY Protocol Graham Just confirmed by test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all other = Software. Others idle on the high tone MMTTY idles on the low, unless = the REV is pressed. From Wiki the upper tone used for idle condition (MARK).=20 Another site says You also have to switch the correct phase position (whether the lower = or higher frequency carrier in frequency modulation corresponds to = "Mark" or "space"). Mind you a Ham education site on the subject says. Remember that bfo=E2=80=99s help filter out the carrier waves to allow = for the original signals to come through Eddie ------=_NextPart_000_00B9_01CE1A74.F4FEA260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it = seems) told=20 me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original message below.
But it is the other way around.
 
But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender and = receiver=20 use the same sideband.... You still have to agree.
And it seems that the current consensus is mark =3D highest tone = =3D highest=20 frequency. So USB if AFSK is used.
 
73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca
 
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Alan Melia
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) with = mechanical=20 'printers, the highest RF frequency was Mark (or idle tone)  It was = independent of which sideband was used. I think this was also the mode = used by=20 the commercial stations
Remember only European lines used = bi-polar=20 signalling. The US used a 20mA mark and no current for space. A = mechanical=20 machine of either type would chatter if the mechanism was not held in = Mark.=20 Timing was mechanical and stop-start was necessary to maintain character = timing=20 sync. with simple mechanical governors.
 
Alan G3NYK
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Minto Witteveen
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 = 11:09=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY = Protocol
 

Hmm might this be because =E2=80=98in the old = days=E2=80=99  (amateur) RTTY was done with = the rig in=20 LSB mode using AFSK?
With mark at 2125 Hz and space at 2295 hz and = mark=20 being the idling position, when using LSB the actual transmitted = frequencies=20 would be =E2=80=98swapped=E2=80=99 (reversed)
So MTTY seems to = assume rig at USB, while=20 all (all?) others assume LSB=E2=80=A6

Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. amateur = reversed,=20 as in AFSK on USB).  I = just=20 checked my PIC code and I have mark at high (DDS_BASE + 85 Hz) and = space at=20 low (DDS_BASE). This then gets swapped around by fldigi because I = listen (via=20 websdr) in USB=E2=80=A6 This explains why fldigi decodes me (and = Stefan) just=20 right.

This is of course based on the assumption that = =E2=80=98right=E2=80=99 means AFSK=20 on LSB, that the space must be the high tone AND the low(est)=20 frequency.
What _is_ the consensus (if = any)?

73=E2=80=99s Minto = pa3bca

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: g3zjo
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44
Subject: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
Graham

Just = confirmed by=20 test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all other Software. Others idle = on the=20 high tone MMTTY idles on the low, unless the REV is=20 pressed.


From Wiki
the upper tone = used for=20 idle condition (MARK).

Another site=20 says
You also have to switch the correct phase position = (whether the=20 lower or higher frequency carrier in frequency modulation corresponds = to=20 "Mark" or "space").

Mind you a Ham education site on the = subject=20 says.
Remember that bfo=E2=80=99s help filter out the carrier = waves to allow for=20 the original signals to come through

Eddie

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