Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-da03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 6B06338000094; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 09:14:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UDEn7-0006hv-M7 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:53:57 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UDEn6-0006hi-Vi for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:53:56 +0000 Received: from nm5-vm8.bt.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([212.82.99.236]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UDEn3-0006fj-Mt for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:53:55 +0000 Received: from [212.82.98.41] by nm5.bt.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Mar 2013 13:53:32 -0000 Received: from [46.228.39.165] by tm2.bt.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Mar 2013 13:53:32 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp106.bt.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Mar 2013 13:53:32 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=s1024; t=1362578012; bh=zoqpB1qcDYaSZBvEmfy6OV+v69fLb1Gbd9BiV6p0T4s=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=ARnMthzYGCwREnaYGUoeYc2L8vVVOOGjAF21blIyiZcm3omHYbjnWFwYBHLLwYTHyI6E7krLGkJt1Ide8vO+DCPvB+Hglzd3XpC43bJOKltS0UzMcgUSM64XEI2NHLpb/yuiNdH0em8K8qCqhn7hmuADap9sqcPyq7wayiaWYo0= X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 95535.99745.bm@smtp106.bt.mail.ir2.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: 4jEyE_MVM1mL18bc8IJ76vbpHymdj3VYaAfj3WloE6ZdnME J2oekE7IdOBK5Ji89NOfVFa1UtDfa.mpySvO8fvvQxCDCtCOcoTHVc12npIi hScTwBpsGheiulreg.PldQyFz9rSMARNydhsc3P4_.LerlQnnknvLXJfT8Vu UW9ZwHRDijgW6_JBtqWl2pmpOYJ5BBh298d14CMb90Fvk65xrkCI.uzQYjV2 0jc63rfm6S4TRwWGYREthlzMYeVq1x3KD0BhSyFklHMKocDJqe77ewTUlppy cQ9CHmgrNMNVffT6d0cwTjikdIrNYUDGtY.irRiHDQCrWAuYwhaSGMjV5gH6 gBoBVVgj3ZBP.63sFdhEWTKajTTVgXjbquodHK3xPRvlezRUFTSNZY6nLePX sjtQ6mgA9c1Fe5khR0SlaKaJjcEEmC83ZjazJxbTMBlh6zlu73wQJAtcFU70 q.GvFGtdWCsY- X-Yahoo-SMTP: .u8e2g.swBByWKjbpA3lR6Fw.2ZEQrJJpVsTSrpXLCffsPaCEMY- Received: from IBM7FFA209F07C (c.ashby435@81.156.245.163 with login) by smtp106.bt.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 06 Mar 2013 13:53:31 +0000 UTC Message-ID: <84B77AD08F5F42849E6492B9048EC349@IBM7FFA209F07C> From: "Chris" To: References: <51371E11.6020502@psk31.plus.com> <513746F3.7090508@psk31.plus.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 13:53:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: ...and the message ended 'NNN', can't remember why. G4AYT. ----- Original Message ----- From: g3zjo To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:38 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [212.82.99.236 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines X-Scan-Signature: a4bb99c845ef4b0e8bc113c5f6138ed3 Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007F_01CE1A71.FDB2E770" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.3 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtain-da03.r1000.mx.aol.com ; domain : btinternet.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d404b51374f394c4d X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01CE1A71.FDB2E770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ...and the message ended 'NNN', can't remember why. G4AYT. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: g3zjo=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:38 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol On 06/03/2013 13:14, Minto Witteveen wrote:=20 That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it = seems) told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original message = below. But it is the other way around. But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender and = receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to agree. And it seems that the current consensus is mark =3D highest tone =3D = highest frequency. So USB if AFSK is used. Yes yes. BTW regarding missing the first character 's. In the mechanical days = did we not send CR/LF first to get things going? I have seen the = software have problems during the recent tests, printing Numbers instead = of Letters. This can be alleviated by sending 46RY first, 46 I think = being RY with LetFig set wrong. Eddie 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Alan Melia=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) with mechanical 'printers, the = highest RF frequency was Mark (or idle tone) It was independent of = which sideband was used. I think this was also the mode used by the = commercial stations Remember only European lines used bi-polar signalling. The US used a = 20mA mark and no current for space. A mechanical machine of either type = would chatter if the mechanism was not held in Mark. Timing was = mechanical and stop-start was necessary to maintain character timing = sync. with simple mechanical governors. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Minto Witteveen=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:09 AM Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol Hmm might this be because =E2=80=98in the old days=E2=80=99 = (amateur) RTTY was done with the rig in LSB mode using AFSK? With mark at 2125 Hz and space at 2295 hz and mark being the = idling position, when using LSB the actual transmitted frequencies would = be =E2=80=98swapped=E2=80=99 (reversed)=20 So MTTY seems to assume rig at USB, while all (all?) others assume = LSB=E2=80=A6 Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. amateur reversed, = as in AFSK on USB). I just checked my PIC code and I have mark at high = (DDS_BASE + 85 Hz) and space at low (DDS_BASE). This then gets swapped = around by fldigi because I listen (via websdr) in USB=E2=80=A6 This = explains why fldigi decodes me (and Stefan) just right. This is of course based on the assumption that = =E2=80=98right=E2=80=99 means AFSK on LSB, that the space must be the = high tone AND the low(est) frequency. What _is_ the consensus (if any)? 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: g3zjo=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: RTTY Protocol Graham Just confirmed by test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all other = Software. Others idle on the high tone MMTTY idles on the low, unless = the REV is pressed. From Wiki the upper tone used for idle condition (MARK).=20 Another site says You also have to switch the correct phase position (whether the = lower or higher frequency carrier in frequency modulation corresponds to = "Mark" or "space"). Mind you a Ham education site on the subject says. Remember that bfo=E2=80=99s help filter out the carrier waves to = allow for the original signals to come through Eddie ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01CE1A71.FDB2E770 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
...and the message ended 'NNN', can't = remember=20 why.
G4AYT.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 g3zjo=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 = 1:38=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY = Protocol

On 06/03/2013 13:14, Minto Witteveen wrote:=20
That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it = seems)=20 told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original message = below.
But it is the other way around.
 
But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender = and=20 receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to agree.
And it seems that the current consensus is mark =3D highest = tone =3D=20 highest frequency. So USB if AFSK is = used.
Yes=20 yes.

BTW regarding missing the first character 's. In the = mechanical=20 days did we not send CR/LF first to get things going? I have seen the = software=20 have problems during the recent tests, printing Numbers instead of = Letters.=20 This can be alleviated by sending 46RY first, 46 I think being RY with = LetFig=20 set wrong.

Eddie

 
73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca
 
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Alan Melia
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) = with mechanical=20 'printers, the highest RF frequency was Mark (or idle tone)  It = was=20 independent of which sideband was used. I think this was also the = mode used=20 by the commercial stations
Remember only European lines used = bi-polar=20 signalling. The US used a 20mA mark and no current for space. A = mechanical=20 machine of either type would chatter if the mechanism was not held = in Mark.=20 Timing was mechanical and stop-start was necessary to maintain = character=20 timing sync. with simple mechanical governors.
 
Alan G3NYK
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Minto Witteveen
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, = 2013 11:09=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY = Protocol
 

Hmm might this be because =E2=80=98in the old = days=E2=80=99  (amateur) RTTY was done = with the=20 rig in LSB mode using AFSK?
With mark at 2125 Hz and space at = 2295 hz=20 and mark being the idling position, when using LSB the actual = transmitted=20 frequencies would be =E2=80=98swapped=E2=80=99 (reversed)
So = MTTY seems to assume rig=20 at USB, while all (all?) others assume = LSB=E2=80=A6

Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. = amateur=20 reversed, as in AFSK on USB). =20 I just checked my PIC code and I have mark at high = (DDS_BASE + 85=20 Hz) and space at low (DDS_BASE). This then gets swapped around by = fldigi=20 because I listen (via websdr) in USB=E2=80=A6 This explains why = fldigi decodes me=20 (and Stefan) just right.

This is of course based on the assumption that = =E2=80=98right=E2=80=99 means=20 AFSK on LSB, that the space must be the high tone AND the low(est) = frequency.
What _is_ the consensus (if=20 any)?

73=E2=80=99s Minto = pa3bca

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: g3zjo
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44
Subject: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
Graham

Just confirmed=20 by test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all other Software. Others = idle on=20 the high tone MMTTY idles on the low, unless the REV is=20 pressed.


From Wiki
the upper = tone used=20 for idle condition (MARK).

Another site=20 says
You also have to switch the correct phase position = (whether=20 the lower or higher frequency carrier in frequency modulation = corresponds=20 to "Mark" or "space").

Mind you a Ham education site = on the=20 subject says.
Remember that bfo=E2=80=99s help filter out = the carrier waves=20 to allow for the original signals to come=20 through

Eddie


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