Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-me02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 9B92138000099; Sat, 30 Mar 2013 21:14:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UM6pz-0005k3-Ub for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 31 Mar 2013 02:13:35 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UM6pz-0005ju-5E for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 31 Mar 2013 02:13:35 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de ([129.206.100.212]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UM6pw-0001Lt-Ea for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 31 Mar 2013 02:13:34 +0100 Received: from freitag.iup.uni-heidelberg.de (freitag.iup.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.29.204]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id r2V1DBU8002989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2013 03:13:11 +0200 Received: from [129.206.22.206] (pc206.iup.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.22.206]) by freitag.iup.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.11.20060308/8.11.2) with ESMTP id r2V1DBrU014298 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2013 03:13:11 +0200 Message-ID: <51578DA2.6020504@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 03:13:06 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Stefan_Sch=E4fer?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000501ce2d39$07bdd430$6401a8c0@JAYDELL> <0BE8C4F802314145B0A4A752B6DBDFA5@Black> <001901ce2d7c$eb8cc930$6401a8c0@JAYDELL> <6A619EDB5EC748B8B3B7AE3787290027@Black> In-Reply-To: <6A619EDB5EC748B8B3B7AE3787290027@Black> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Markus, Interesting new on your side. Congrats to the new DX and the new antenna wire. For a compact coil of 5 mH you will need 2 or 3 layers, as you say. Maybe you can add some spacing between the 2 layers? A diameter of 30cm or above is necessary. It's more than 1 year ago since i built my LF coil. Here's a photo from the first Q measurements. I got a Q of about 1000 with that wire. However a higher ratio diameter/length and more distance to the ground would result in even more Q i think. [...] Content analysis details: (-2.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [129.206.100.212 listed in list.dnswl.org] -1.3 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: b64e297c4577ad617411a4f8f6174ca7 Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re: Re: Re: DF6NM DK7FC in CT Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040705060401030007080308" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d608a51578dff5e89 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040705060401030007080308 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by relay.uni-heidelberg.de id r2V1DBU8002989 Hi Markus, Interesting new on your side. Congrats to the new DX and the new antenna=20 wire. For a compact coil of 5 mH you will need 2 or 3 layers, as you say.=20 Maybe you can add some spacing between the 2 layers? A diameter of 30cm=20 or above is necessary. It's more than 1 year ago since i built my LF coil. Here's a photo from=20 the first Q measurements. I got a Q of about 1000 with that wire.=20 However a higher ratio diameter/length and more distance to the ground=20 would result in even more Q i think. I guess your heat problem will be solved with the new coil :-) So you=20 may come back to the voltage limit of the antenna or to the power limit=20 of the PA :-) However be careful with the HV. The litz wire is very=20 rare, you know... 73, GL, Stefan/DK7FC Am 31.03.2013 01:07, schrieb Markus Vester: > Fortunately it was not half as bad as it looks. During the=20 > transmission I heard the fan speed up as the current from the power=20 > supply dropped, opened the roof window where the coil is sitting,=20 > noticed the little flames eating the white plastic bag, and blew them=20 > out just like a birthday candle. The fire had probably started in the=20 > greenish foam insulation where the wire from the bottom of the outer=20 > coil runs back up to the top of the inner coil. Afterwards the whole=20 > coil was still intact DC-wise (4 ohms) but showed slightly lower=20 > inductance and very high RF loss resistance (about 53 ohms),=20 > apparently a short circuit between adjacent turns. After separating=20 > the injured turns with my fingernails, the RF resistance went back=20 > down to the normal 7 ohms, so I'm confident that this coil can be=20 > repaired. > http://df6nm.bplaced.net/LF/pictures/topload_doubled/burnt_litz_detail_= 31.jpg > But I decided that I want to build a more substantial coil using Decca=20 > RF litzwire, the "secret weapon" which serves so well in Stefan's=20 > beautiful large glass coil. However as this insulated litz is much=20 > thicker than the old one (4.5 mm od instead of 1.5 mm), the only way=20 > to get a compact 5 mH coil is winding in multiple layers. Here's my=20 > first attempt > http://df6nm.bplaced.net/LF/pictures/topload_doubled/decca_fourlayer_co= il_29.jpg ,=20 > using 180 turns in a staggered four-layer winding, about 28 cm=20 > diameter and 19 cm long in five segments. The inductance was then=20 > adjusted by removing 18 turns from the bottom end. DC resistance is=20 > only 1 ohm, but at 137 kHz the loss is a disappointing 6.5 ohms,=20 > hardly better than the thin litz wire used before! This is clearly due=20 > to proximity effect, ie eddy currents induced within each inner=20 > filament by the magnetic field created by the outer layers. For a=20 > given strand diameter, there must be an optimal total thickness of the=20 > layers, and using more copper than that reduces the Q factor again.=20 > Guess I will try to rewind this coil on a larger former in three or=20 > two layers, which will require a longer wire but probably reduce AC=20 > losses. > Antenna pulled in to low position now, watching LF but no=20 > transmissions from here tonight. > Best 73, > Markus (DF6NM) > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* jrusgrove@comcast.net > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Sent:* Saturday, March 30, 2013 8:29 PM > *Subject:* LF: Re: Re: Re: DF6NM DK7FC in CT > > Markus > Sorry to hear of the mishap ... pix of the damage are always=20 > appreciated! Wonder if your neighbors got to see the 'show'? > If you haven't started a fire while transmitting LF you're not running=20 > enough power ;~) . > Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Markus Vester > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 30, 2013 10:12 AM > *Subject:* LF: Re: Re: DF6NM DK7FC in CT > > Here's the result of 13 minutes at 1W ERP > http://www.df6nm.bplaced.net/LF/pictures/topload_doubled/loading_co= il_fire_28.jpg > ...more work to do :-( > Best 73, > Markus > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Markus Vester > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 30, 2013 1:56 PM > *Subject:* LF: Re: DF6NM DK7FC in CT > > ... > At the end of a 15 minute transmission, the temperature at the > inside of the litzwire loading coil had gone up to 80=B0C, so I see= m > to be limited by current rather than voltage now. > ... > --------------040705060401030007080308 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Markus,

Interesting new on your side. Congrats to the new DX and the new antenna wire.

For a compact coil of 5 mH you will need 2 or 3 layers, as you say. Maybe you can add some spacing between the 2 layers? A diameter of 30cm or above is necessary.
It's more than 1 year ago since i built my LF coil. Here's a photo from the first Q measurements. I got a Q of about 1000 with that wire. However a higher ratio diameter/length and more distance to the ground would result in even more Q i think.

I guess your heat problem will be solved with the new coil :-) So you may come back to the voltage limit of the antenna or to the power limit of the PA :-) However be careful with the HV. The litz wire is very rare, you know...

73, GL, Stefan/DK7FC

Am 31.03.2013 01:07, schrieb Markus Vester:
Fortunately it was not half as bad as it looks. During the transmission I heard the fan speed up as the current from the power supply dropped, opened the roof window where the coil is sitting, noticed the little flames eating the white plastic bag, and blew them out just like a birthday candle. The fire had probably started in the greenish foam insulation where the wire from the bottom of the outer coil runs back up to the top of the inner coil. Afterwards the whole coil was still intact DC-wise (4 ohms) but showed slightly lower inductance and very high RF loss resistance (about 53 ohms), apparently a short circuit between adjacent turns. After separating the injured turns with my fingernails, the RF resistance went back down to the normal 7 ohms, so I'm confident that this coil can be repaired.
 
But I decided that I want to build a more substantial coil using Decca RF litzwire, the "secret weapon" which serves so well in Stefan's beautiful large glass coil. However as this insulated litz is much thicker than the old one (4.5 mm od instead of 1.5 mm), the only way to get a compact 5 mH coil is winding in multiple layers. Here's my first attempt
http://df6nm.bplaced.net/LF/pictures/topload_doubled/decca_fourlayer_coil_29.jpg , using 180 turns in a staggered four-layer winding, about 28 cm diameter and 19 cm long in five segments. The inductance was then adjusted by removing 18 turns from the bottom end. DC resistance is only 1 ohm, but at 137 kHz the loss is a disappointing 6.5 ohms, hardly better than the thin litz wire used before! This is clearly due to proximity effect, ie eddy currents induced within each inner filament by the magnetic field created by the outer layers. For a given strand diameter, there must be an optimal total thickness of the layers, and using more copper than that reduces the Q factor again. Guess I will try to rewind this coil on a larger former in three or two layers, which will require a longer wire but probably reduce AC losses.
 
Antenna pulled in to low position now, watching LF but no transmissions from here tonight.
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 8:29 PM
Subject: LF: Re: Re: Re: DF6NM DK7FC in CT

Markus
 
Sorry to hear of the mishap ... pix of the damage are always appreciated! Wonder if your neighbors got to see the 'show'?
 
If you haven't started a fire while transmitting LF you're not running enough power ;~) .
 
Jay W1VD  WD2XNS  WE2XGR/2
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 10:12 AM
Subject: LF: Re: Re: DF6NM DK7FC in CT

Here's the result of 13 minutes at 1W ERP
...more work to do :-(
 
Best 73,
Markus
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 1:56 PM
Subject: LF: Re: DF6NM DK7FC in CT

...
At the end of a 15 minute transmission, the temperature at the inside of the litzwire loading coil had gone up to 80°C, so I seem to be limited by current rather than voltage now.
...
--------------040705060401030007080308--