Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mg06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 02D26380000C8; Mon, 11 Feb 2013 22:29:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1U56XZ-0005qc-Fs for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 12 Feb 2013 03:28:17 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1U56XY-0005qT-Pu for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 12 Feb 2013 03:28:16 +0000 Received: from blu0-omc1-s14.blu0.hotmail.com ([65.55.116.25]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1U56XW-0005jK-AN for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 12 Feb 2013 03:28:15 +0000 Received: from BLU153-W38 ([65.55.116.8]) by blu0-omc1-s14.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 11 Feb 2013 19:27:51 -0800 X-EIP: [3ye1mesRgKtucYaSEqDoSI3bdLaCk2dC] X-Originating-Email: [hellozerohellozero@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: Laurence KL1 X To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 18:27:51 -0900 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: <51197759.6090001@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>, MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Feb 2013 03:27:51.0910 (UTC) FILETIME=[F05BF060:01CE08D0] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. 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Content preview: I would agree Alan that on the longer hauls I still see a more rapid fade pattern but not the couple of mins typical of the shorter hop stuff - - I sort of got used to "20 mins" for 137Khz on the Transpolar and Trans Siberian paths into China from Eu, but it was a little more than "5 mins" at 500Khz - that sort of aligns on what I saw at sea on the Antarctic/South Atlantic paths on 500 back to Portishead path back long long ago, and what I have heard from here and Fiji into Oz and NZ - but I also recall the fades became more vertical and shorter during the more disturbed periods - again this way very dependant on the path profile and where it and what it crossed on the Rhum line geomag and whether it was North/South East West - again cutting across the "lines" was far more problematic. I still scratch my head to see the MUF map of the world and how it looks more like a complicated barometric pressure map with depressions and High pressure areas :-) What I would do is not to discount the long periods out of hand at 500 - I have a tingly feeling that dot 30 is as slow as I would go but Ive been proved wrong countless times :-) What I do know is to date that bar Japan to Alaska (apart from Canada/USA) no signals have reached the levels that my old CW ears could decode, and truthfully I dont think they would ever get to that level at our ERP levels and lack of the salty stuff. Mind you I would love to set up an MF station here on Maui - Ive already picked my spot and the tower I would steal (Junction of Lahaina/Kihei road at South Kihei). Im trying to twist a certain arm to install MF on our expedition ship, but we dont have a lot of space for the normal type of array Im used to. We will see Laurence KL 1X/KH62AZT > From: alan.melia@btinternet.com > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 01:09:31 +0000 > Subject: LF: Re: Considerations about wide DX experiments on 630m and tonites QRSS-60 > > Hi Stefan I think that maybe the right approach. I think you may find that > the "perceived wisdom" on [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [65.55.116.25 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (hellozerohellozero[at]hotmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 13ce2d45c6831942db3d21680606cc2e Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_1d9b5f7c-9ac6-463d-b927-586a76af49c6_" Subject: LF: Was Considerations about wide DX experiments - how slow should we go? X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.2 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD, HTML_MESSAGE,NO_EXPERIENCE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60ce5119b72e4db7 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none --_1d9b5f7c-9ac6-463d-b927-586a76af49c6_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would agree Alan that on the longer hauls I still see a more rapid fade p= attern but not the couple of mins typical of the shorter hop stuff - - I so= rt of got used to "20 mins" for 137Khz on the Transpolar and Trans Siberian= paths into China from Eu=2C but it was a little more than "5 mins" at 500K= hz - that sort of aligns on what I saw at sea on the Antarctic/South Atlant= ic paths on 500 back to Portishead path back long long ago=2C and what I ha= ve heard from here and Fiji into Oz and NZ - but I also recall the fades be= came more vertical and shorter during the more disturbed periods - again th= is way very dependant on the path profile and where it and what it crossed = on the Rhum line geomag and whether it was North/South East West - again cu= tting across the "lines" was far more problematic. I still scratch my hea= d to see the MUF map of the world and how it looks more like a complicated = barometric pressure map with depressions and High pressure areas :-) What = I would do is not to discount the long periods out of hand at 500 - I have = a tingly feeling that dot 30 is as slow as I would go but Ive been proved w= rong countless times :-) What I do know is to date that bar Japan to Alaska= (apart from Canada/USA) no signals have reached the levels that my old CW = ears could decode=2C and truthfully I dont think they would ever get to tha= t level at our ERP levels and lack of the salty stuff. Mind you I would lov= e to set up an MF station here on Maui - Ive already picked my spot and the= tower I would steal (Junction of Lahaina/Kihei road at South Kihei). Im t= rying to twist a certain arm to install MF on our expedition ship=2C but we= dont have a lot of space for the normal type of array Im used to. We will = see Laurence KL 1X/KH62AZT > From: alan.melia@btinternet.com > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Date: Tue=2C 12 Feb 2013 01:09:31 +0000 > Subject: LF: Re: Considerations about wide DX experiments on 630m and ton= ites QRSS-60 >=20 > Hi Stefan I think that maybe the right approach. I think you may find tha= t=20 > the "perceived wisdom" on fading rate v QRSS speed is based on relatively= =20 > short paths. I suspect it may well be very different at real DX range=2C = that=20 > is several hops.......>6000km. There obviously is some sort of a problem= =20 > because the wavelength is much shorter than 136kHz so the phase changes m= ore=20 > rapidly with ionisation and "apparent refection height" but you need two= =20 > "modes" of nearly equal strength to get extinction. This may not be so=20 > prevalent at long ranges on 470kHz. The experiment will be very interesti= ng=20 > if you can start to leave traces on distant grabbers. >=20 > Alan > G3NYK > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Stefan Sch=E4fer" > To: =3B "Vasily Savchenko" =3B=20 > "Garry and Linda Hess" =3B "Douglas D. Williams"=20 > =3B "Andy - KU4XR" =3B "Edgar J Twinin= g"=20 > > Sent: Monday=2C February 11=2C 2013 10:57 PM > Subject: LF: Considerations about wide DX experiments on 630m and tonites= =20 > QRSS-60 >=20 >=20 > > MF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! =3B-) > > > > Edgar in Tasmania was recently asking if i have some plans about DX=20 > > experiments on 630m. Well that is a path of > 16000 km. However we do n= ot=20 > > have real experience if that is easier than 2200m or rather impossible. > > > > At least i know that there was not even a single decode by UA0SNV in my= MF=20 > > WSPR and QRSS tests so far=2C while it is no problem on LF (OK my MF si= gnal=20 > > is weaker than my LF signal). Thus i would guess that it is much harder= to=20 > > get some traces of a signal on 630m. We will try anyway! > > > > I'm starting to run a QRSS-60 transmission on 476.172 kHz (+- a few Hz)= =20 > > for the night. Maybe someone across the pond will catch something. We= =2C or=20 > > at least i still have no experience about the QSB problem on very slow= =20 > > QRSS transmissions on MF. It would be interesting to see a spectrogram. > > > > On air in a few minutes. > > > > 73=2C Stefan/DK7FC > > > > PS: No=2C not only beacon transmissions=2C i've just had a > 1 hour lon= g CW=20 > > QSO with PA0LCE and DK6SX/p! Also contacts to OK2BVG and S57A. > >=20 >=20 >=20 = --_1d9b5f7c-9ac6-463d-b927-586a76af49c6_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would agree Alan =3Bthat on the longer hauls I still see a =3Bmor= e rapid fade pattern but not the couple of mins typical of the shorter hop = stuff -
 =3B
- I sort of got used to =3B"20 mins" for 137Khz = on the Transpolar and Trans Siberian paths into China from Eu=2C but it was= a little more than "5 mins" at 500Khz - that sort of aligns on what I saw = at sea on the Antarctic/South Atlantic paths on 500 =3Bback to Portishe= ad path back =3Blong long ago=2C and what I =3Bhave heard from here=  =3Band Fiji into Oz and NZ =3B- but I also recall =3Bthe fades= became more vertical and shorter during the more disturbed periods - again= this way very dependant on the path profile and where it and what it cross= ed on the Rhum line geomag and whether it was North/South East West - again= cutting across the "lines" was far more problematic. =3B =3B
&n= bsp=3B
I still scratch my head to see the MUF map of the world and how i= t looks more like a complicated barometric pressure map with depressions an= d High pressure areas :-)
 =3B
 =3BWhat I would do is not to = discount the long periods out of hand at 500 - I have a tingly feeling that= dot 30 is as slow as =3BI would go but Ive been proved wrong countless= times :-)
 =3B
What I do know is to date that bar Japan to Alask= a =3B(apart from Canada/USA) no signals have reached the levels that my= old CW =3Bears could decode=2C and truthfully I dont think they would = ever get to that level =3Bat our ERP levels and lack of the salty stuff= .
 =3B
Mind you I would love to set up an MF station here on Maui= - Ive already picked my spot and the tower I would steal (Junction of Laha= ina/Kihei road at South Kihei).
 =3B
Im trying to twist a certai= n arm to install MF on =3Bour expedition ship=2C but we dont have a lot= of space for the normal type of array Im used to. We will see
 =3B<= BR>Laurence KL 1X/KH6
2AZT
 =3B
>=3B From: alan.melia@btinternet.com
>=3B To: rsgb_lf_g= roup@blacksheep.org
>=3B Date: Tue=2C 12 Feb 2013 01:09:31 +0000
&g= t=3B Subject: LF: Re: Considerations about wide DX experiments on 630m and = tonites QRSS-60
>=3B
>=3B Hi Stefan I think that maybe the right= approach. I think you may find that
>=3B the "perceived wisdom" on f= ading rate v QRSS speed is based on relatively
>=3B short paths. I su= spect it may well be very different at real DX range=2C that
>=3B is = several hops.......>=3B6000km. There obviously is some sort of a problem =
>=3B because the wavelength is much shorter than 136kHz so the phase = changes more
>=3B rapidly with ionisation and "apparent refection hei= ght" but you need two
>=3B "modes" of nearly equal strength to get ex= tinction. This may not be so
>=3B prevalent at long ranges on 470kHz.= The experiment will be very interesting
>=3B if you can start to lea= ve traces on distant grabbers.
>=3B
>=3B Alan
>=3B G3NYK>=3B ----- Original Message -----
>=3B From: "Stefan Sch=E4fer" &l= t=3BStefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>=3B
>=3B To: <=3Brsgb_lf= _group@blacksheep.org>=3B=3B "Vasily Savchenko" <=3Bua0snv@yahoo.com>= =3B=3B
>=3B "Garry and Linda Hess" <=3Bk3siw@sbcglobal.net>=3B=3B= "Douglas D. Williams"
>=3B <=3Bkb4oer@gmail.com>=3B=3B "Andy - K= U4XR" <=3Bku4xr@yahoo.com>=3B=3B "Edgar J Twining"
>=3B <=3Bedg= arjtwining@virginbroadband.com.au>=3B
>=3B Sent: Monday=2C February = 11=2C 2013 10:57 PM
>=3B Subject: LF: Considerations about wide DX exp= eriments on 630m and tonites
>=3B QRSS-60
>=3B
>=3B
&g= t=3B >=3B MF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! =3B-)
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >= =3B Edgar in Tasmania was recently asking if i have some plans about DX >=3B >=3B experiments on 630m. Well that is a path of >=3B 16000 km.= However we do not
>=3B >=3B have real experience if that is easier= than 2200m or rather impossible.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B At leas= t i know that there was not even a single decode by UA0SNV in my MF
>= =3B >=3B WSPR and QRSS tests so far=2C while it is no problem on LF (OK m= y MF signal
>=3B >=3B is weaker than my LF signal). Thus i would gu= ess that it is much harder to
>=3B >=3B get some traces of a signal= on 630m. We will try anyway!
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I'm startin= g to run a QRSS-60 transmission on 476.172 kHz (+- a few Hz)
>=3B >= =3B for the night. Maybe someone across the pond will catch something. We= =2C or
>=3B >=3B at least i still have no experience about the QSB = problem on very slow
>=3B >=3B QRSS transmissions on MF. It would b= e interesting to see a spectrogram.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B On ai= r in a few minutes.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B 73=2C Stefan/DK7FC>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B PS: No=2C not only beacon transmissions=2C = i've just had a >=3B 1 hour long CW
>=3B >=3B QSO with PA0LCE and= DK6SX/p! Also contacts to OK2BVG and S57A.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
= --_1d9b5f7c-9ac6-463d-b927-586a76af49c6_--