Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-ma02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 0F8363800008D; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 13:54:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1TrvL2-0002Zl-N2 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:52:52 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1TrvL1-0002Zc-Rt for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:52:51 +0000 Received: from mail-qc0-f169.google.com ([209.85.216.169]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1TrvKz-0002W9-3O for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:52:50 +0000 Received: by mail-qc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id t2so11225262qcq.14 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 10:52:26 -0800 (PST) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=gAuFe6cw4ZiK+KdzaS9gavT//aqshhCslI0YODkRKdc=; b=kKPHGtKvOMPVCScsFbKvXAwbLIw7LAwplX8RXMNmoWHErcrRvCiV08QkP+KE/leGol TOxz5KbQ8yXk6UuC/FjH+oksVDcHANfkvwCL4Lje8a5WVMEObMqlwlHuVRszHNoiR5pb HCU1FXOxBPexUGjNVNdPOakO9bqfHtDUwDd0nBmnVYuYf3adaYKerL2h0sf4gtjb19m3 wVsanOtEsbFf4kefDUodS0fN63jBs7iVcsOnzMdQRJkWSFqeltDpWclLextRZqMlsD4N CdX+zmJU7CmyrMYH4QnLM3Wt2Xql+vWC4XpNix3ba6zH47Y+qr823LPcSqW4dJuybyFR v0Ig== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.105.137 with SMTP id t9mr40205149qao.32.1357498346363; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 10:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.156.18 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 10:52:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <50E9C2E0.3040406@psk31.plus.com> References: <6BB1547C1F2041AC9F53361E123A7233@AGB> <76D697F908F543F98FDE24C566D57B7B@AGB> <50E9C2E0.3040406@psk31.plus.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 18:52:26 +0000 Message-ID: From: Roger Lapthorn To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Yes I should try this Eddie and will do so later in the week as part of this experiment. I have a couple of earth rods right outside the rear of the house and can connect to these rather than the pipes just inside the house. The other earth rod is at the bottom of the garden. [...] Content analysis details: (-0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [209.85.216.169 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (rogerlapthorn[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 4bc17085406dca8cb02959d4b62a7d31 Subject: Re: LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better (701km with around 5mW ERP) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3074da5ab7dc2404d2a3365b X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtain-ma02.r1000.mx.aol.com ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d600a50e9c85643f8 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none --20cf3074da5ab7dc2404d2a3365b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yes I should try this Eddie and will do so later in the week as part of this experiment. I have a couple of earth rods right outside the rear of the house and can connect to these rather than the pipes just inside the house. The other earth rod is at the bottom of the garden. You may recall that when I tried this on VLF the results on earth-mode were well down, suggesting that the copper pipe connection is important. Mind you, the water pipes right outside in the road are NOT metal and do not have tracer wires either. It may well be different on 472kHz though if this is working as a loop; on VLF earth mode the way the signal is propagated is totally different. 73s Roger G3XBM On 6 January 2013 18:30, g3zjo wrote: > Roger > > Great results. > > Can you out of interest disconnect the House / great lump of capacitance, > mains wiring, water pipes etc. Leaving just the 2 probes and top wire. It > would be re-produce-able then > > Eddie > > > On 06/01/2013 18:10, Graham wrote: > > That's a good start then Roger, ! > > I think it could be visualised as a gradual / gradient , so the > top wires have the max current in free space and the return path > is some form of diffused large cross sectional area , you > could model it on 2 meters ..using what for the ground ... > cardboard box , bin bag , water and jar of cooking salt , add to > increase conduction ? > > Could be simply gain is from the increased amps in the top > radiator , so the model would be quite small for 2 mtrs , kitchen > table job ! > > .G.. > *From:* Roger Lapthorn > *Sent:* Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:53 PM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better (701km > with around 5mW ERP) > > Well this is just about the only explanation that will make any sense > Graham. > > If so, I would expect some directivity and when I analyse the results > after an overnight run we'll see if stations off the side of the "loop" are > statistically weaker (compared with the Marconi vertical) than stations in > the line of the "loop". If so, this would tend to support loop like > operation. The DL-SWL and PA reports are roughly in the plane of the wire, > but there are plenty of reports from other directions too. > > Of course, here in the UK we have highly saturated ground - I have NEVER > known East Anglia to be so waterlogged - so the effective loop area cannot > be that great. > > Anyone care to offer other suggested modes for this "non antenna"? > > 73s > Roger G3XBM > > > > > > On 6 January 2013 17:42, Graham wrote: > >> R, >> >> I thought it was established that the ground did not 'exist' >> for some 20/40 feet or more from the surface and as such, your >> using a loop with the bottom wire 40 feet lower than the top wire >> ? >> >> This was the principal of ground lying Ae .would not work on >> salt marshes , but for normal ground , lossey but capable of >> supporting radiation ? >> >> G.. >> >> *From:* Roger Lapthorn >> *Sent:* Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:28 PM >> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk >> *Subject:* LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better (701km with >> around 5mW ERP) >> >> OK, now I am *totally* amazed.... >> >> Just got a WSPR spot from DL-SWL in Germany (JO52hp) at 701km using just >> the earth electrode system on TX. Please someone, explain why this works as >> well as it does, especially considering my ERP must be around 5mW at best. >> >> Incidentally G3XIZ is a colossal +7dB S/N on WSPR and I think Chris >> would be easily workable on CW using the earth electrode system. >> >> 73s >> Roger G3XBM >> >> -- >> http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.g3xbm.co.uk >> https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/ >> http://qss2.blogspot.com/ >> >> > > > -- > http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ > http://www.g3xbm.co.uk > https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/ > http://qss2.blogspot.com/ > > > -- http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/ http://qss2.blogspot.com/ --20cf3074da5ab7dc2404d2a3365b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes I should try this Eddie and will do so later in t= he week as part of this experiment.

I have a couple of earth rods ri= ght outside the rear of the house and can connect to these rather than the = pipes just inside the house. The other earth rod is at the bottom of the ga= rden.

You may recall that when I tried this on VLF the results on earth-mode = were well down, suggesting that the copper pipe connection is important. Mi= nd you, the water pipes right outside in the road are NOT metal and do not = have tracer wires either. It may well be different on 472kHz though if this= is working as a loop; on VLF earth mode the way the signal is propagated i= s totally different.

73s
Roger G3XBM


On 6 January 2013 18:30, g3z= jo <g3zjo@psk31.plus.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
Roger

Great results.

Can you out of interest disconnect the House / great lump of capacitance, mains wiring, water pipes etc. Leaving just the 2 probes and top wire. It would be re-produce-able then

Eddie


On 06/01/2013 18:10, Graham wrote:
=20 =20
That's a=A0 good=A0 start=A0 then=A0Roger, =A0!
=A0
I=A0 think it=A0 could be visualised=A0 as a=A0=A0=A0 gradual=A0= / gradient=A0 , so the=A0 =A0top=A0 wires=A0 have the=A0 max=A0 curre= nt=A0 in free=A0 space=A0 and the=A0 return=A0 path is=A0 some=A0 form of=A0= diffused=A0 large=A0 cross=A0 sectional=A0 area=A0=A0=A0=A0 , you=A0 could=A0 m= odel=A0 it=A0 on 2=A0 meters=A0 ..using=A0 what=A0 for=A0 the=A0 ground ... cardboard box= , bin bag , water=A0 and jar of cooking=A0 salt , add=A0 to=A0 increase= =A0 conduction =A0 ?
=A0
Could=A0 be=A0 simply=A0 gain is from the=A0 increased=A0 amps= =A0 in the=A0 top=A0 radiator , so=A0 the=A0 model=A0 would=A0 be=A0 quite=A0 sma= ll=A0 for 2=A0 mtrs , kitchen=A0 table=A0 job !
=A0
.G..
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better (701km with around 5mW ERP)

Well this is just about the only explanation that will make any sense Graham.

If so, I would expect some directivity and when I analyse the results after an overnight run we'll see if stations off the side of the "loop" are statistic= ally weaker (compared with the Marconi vertical) than stations in the line of the "loop". If so, this w= ould tend to support loop like operation. The DL-SWL and PA reports are roughly in the plane of the wire, but there are plenty of reports from other directions too.

Of course, here in the UK we have highly saturated ground - I have NEVER known East Anglia to be so waterlogged - so the effective loop area cannot be that great.

Anyone care to offer other suggested modes for this "non antenna"?

73s
Roger G3XBM





On 6 January 2013 17:42, Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
R,
=A0
I thought=A0 it=A0 was=A0 established=A0 that=A0 the=A0 = ground=A0 did=A0 not=A0 'exist'=A0 for=A0 some=A0 20/40=A0 fe= et=A0 or more from the=A0 surface=A0 and=A0 as=A0 such, your=A0 using a=A0 loo= p=A0 with the=A0 bottom=A0 wire=A0=A0 40=A0 feet=A0 lower than the=A0= top=A0 wire ?
=A0
This was the=A0 principal=A0 of=A0 ground lying=A0=A0 Ae= =A0 .would=A0 not=A0 work=A0 on=A0 salt marshes=A0 , but=A0 for= =A0 normal=A0 ground , lossey but=A0 capable=A0 of=A0 supporting=A0 radia= tion ?
=A0
G..

Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:28 PM
Subject: LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better (701km with around 5mW ERP)

OK, now I am totally amazed....

Just got a WSPR spot from DL-SWL in Germany (JO52hp) at 701km using just the earth electrode system on TX. Please someone, explain why this works as well as it does, especially considering my ERP must be around 5mW at best.

Incidentally G3XIZ is a colossal +7dB S/N on WSPR and I think Chris would be easily workable on CW using the earth electrode system.

73s
Roger G3XBM



--
=A0htt= p://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3x= bm.co.uk
https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/
http://qss2= .blogspot.com/





--
=A0http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/
http://qss2.blogspot.com/

--20cf3074da5ab7dc2404d2a3365b--