Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mk03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 6F568380000AB; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 13:12:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Truge-0001xH-Kw for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:11:08 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Truge-0001x8-27 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:11:08 +0000 Received: from smtpout3.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.59] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1Trugb-0002KR-Ft for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:11:06 +0000 Received: from AGB ([2.26.46.248]) by mwinf5d35 with ME id kiAk1k0085MGj1N03iAkaC; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 19:10:45 +0100 Message-ID: <76D697F908F543F98FDE24C566D57B7B@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <6BB1547C1F2041AC9F53361E123A7233@AGB> In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 18:10:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: That's a good start then Roger, ! I think it could be visualised as a gradual / gradient , so the top wires have the max current in free space and the return path is some form of diffused large cross sectional area , you could model it on 2 meters ..using what for the ground ... cardboard box , bin bag , water and jar of cooking salt , add to increase conduction ? [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.59 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 7117f452ff11af9bac782a916713f0d7 Subject: Re: LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better (701km with around 5mW ERP) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01DA_01CDEC39.24D544E0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d618750e9be8e4fa7 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01DA_01CDEC39.24D544E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's a good start then Roger, ! I think it could be visualised as a gradual / gradient , so the = top wires have the max current in free space and the return = path is some form of diffused large cross sectional area , = you could model it on 2 meters ..using what for the ground ... = cardboard box , bin bag , water and jar of cooking salt , add to = increase conduction ? Could be simply gain is from the increased amps in the top = radiator , so the model would be quite small for 2 mtrs , = kitchen table job ! .G.. From: Roger Lapthorn=20 Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:53 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better (701km = with around 5mW ERP) Well this is just about the only explanation that will make any sense = Graham.=20 If so, I would expect some directivity and when I analyse the results = after an overnight run we'll see if stations off the side of the "loop" = are statistically weaker (compared with the Marconi vertical) than = stations in the line of the "loop". If so, this would tend to support = loop like operation. The DL-SWL and PA reports are roughly in the plane = of the wire, but there are plenty of reports from other directions too. Of course, here in the UK we have highly saturated ground - I have NEVER = known East Anglia to be so waterlogged - so the effective loop area = cannot be that great. Anyone care to offer other suggested modes for this "non antenna"? 73s Roger G3XBM On 6 January 2013 17:42, Graham wrote: R, I thought it was established that the ground did not 'exist' = for some 20/40 feet or more from the surface and as such, your = using a loop with the bottom wire 40 feet lower than the top = wire ? This was the principal of ground lying Ae .would not work on = salt marshes , but for normal ground , lossey but capable of = supporting radiation ? G.. From: Roger Lapthorn=20 Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:28 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk=20 Subject: LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better (701km with = around 5mW ERP) OK, now I am totally amazed.... Just got a WSPR spot from DL-SWL in Germany (JO52hp) at 701km using = just the earth electrode system on TX. Please someone, explain why this = works as well as it does, especially considering my ERP must be around = 5mW at best.=20 Incidentally G3XIZ is a colossal +7dB S/N on WSPR and I think Chris = would be easily workable on CW using the earth electrode system. 73s Roger G3XBM --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/ http://qss2.blogspot.com/ --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/ http://qss2.blogspot.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_01DA_01CDEC39.24D544E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That's a  good  start  then Roger, =  !
 
I  think it  could be visualised  as = a   =20 gradual  / gradient  , so the   top  = wires  have=20 the  max  current  in free  space  and = the =20 return  path is  some  form of  diffused  = large =20 cross  sectional  area     , you  = could =20 model  it  on 2  meters  ..using  what  = for =20 the  ground ... cardboard box , bin bag , water  and jar of=20 cooking  salt , add  to  increase  conduction   = ?
 
Could  be  simply  gain is from the  = increased =20 amps  in the  top  radiator , so  the  = model =20 would  be  quite  small  for 2  mtrs , = kitchen =20 table  job !
 
.G..
From: Roger Lapthorn
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:53 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets = better (701km=20 with around 5mW ERP)

Well this is just about the only explanation that will make any = sense=20 Graham.

If so, I would expect some directivity and when I = analyse the=20 results after an overnight run we'll see if stations off the side of the = "loop"=20 are statistically weaker (compared with the Marconi vertical) than = stations in=20 the line of the "loop". If so, this would tend to support loop like = operation.=20 The DL-SWL and PA reports are roughly in the plane of the wire, but = there are=20 plenty of reports from other directions too.

Of course, = here in the=20 UK we have highly saturated ground - I have NEVER known East Anglia to = be so=20 waterlogged - so the effective loop area cannot be that=20 great.

Anyone care to offer other suggested modes for this = "non=20 antenna"?

73s
Roger G3XBM





On 6 January 2013 17:42, Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
R,
 
I thought  it  was  established  that  = the =20 ground  did  not  'exist'  for  some =20 20/40  feet  or more from the  surface  and  = as =20 such, your  using a  loop  with the  bottom =20 wire   40  feet  lower than the  top  = wire=20 ?
 
This was the  principal  of  ground = lying  =20 Ae  .would  not  work  on  salt marshes  = ,=20 but  for  normal  ground , lossey but  = capable =20 of  supporting  radiation ?
 
G..

From: Roger = Lapthorn
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:28 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk
Subject: LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better = (701km=20 with around 5mW ERP)

OK, now I am totally amazed....

Just got a WSPR = spot from=20 DL-SWL in Germany (JO52hp) at 701km using just the earth electrode = system on=20 TX. Please someone, explain why this works as well as it does, = especially=20 considering my ERP must be around 5mW at best.

Incidentally G3XIZ is a colossal +7dB S/N on WSPR and I think = Chris would=20 be easily workable on CW using the earth electrode system.

73s
Roger G3XBM

--
http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/
http://qss2.blogspot.com/



--
 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
https://sites.google.com/= site/sub9khz/
http://qss2.blogspot.com/

<= /DIV> ------=_NextPart_000_01DA_01CDEC39.24D544E0--