Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dk05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 8D8B7380001B9; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 17:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Tqtct-0005RZ-Q5 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 22:51:03 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Tqtcs-0005RQ-Ql for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 22:51:02 +0000 Received: from smtpout2.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.42] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1Tqtcp-0005yL-LD for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 22:51:01 +0000 Received: from AGB ([2.26.14.171]) by mwinf5d17 with ME id jaqb1k00a3hSEUJ03aqb5d; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 23:50:39 +0100 Message-ID: <135D4E6FD31D4F40B2DC2B0B92195183@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <0A4D88A68FCB4F22A2BC40825788A6AA@AGB> <1357150913.48886.YahooMailNeo@web133204.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <63C5AFAA6F8C41A7936F2069D38FAC01@AGB> <81FED2F455C94E45B3BE41353A6D53BC@W1KW> <52B2628757094925BA8206A2C0D9640B@AGB> <1357173044.69099.YahooMailNeo@web133203.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <48BBF8CC892E4164B0E96E856BB44972@gnat> <1357243322.31464.YahooMailNeo@web133204.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1357243322.31464.YahooMailNeo@web133204.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 22:50:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Pete Funny you should mention the rsgb , as one of there technical board members seems to of lead the charge to the middle of the band on wspr , all very odd , actually it would only take the grabber chap's to review the situation and move the window and the job would be done , that only leaves the wspr location to be finalised , we did better in 3 KHz , may be the guys on the east coast usa could take a second look at there dial setting ? [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.42 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 338511851a4751f5ea34eab5b7afa947 Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0050_01CDEA04.BE1DDF90" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1db40950e60bbd5f28 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01CDEA04.BE1DDF90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pete=20 Funny you should mention the rsgb , as one of there technical = board members seems to of lead the charge to the middle of the = band on wspr , all very odd , actually it would only take the = grabber chap's to review the situation and move the window and = the job would be done , that only leaves the wspr location to = be finalised , we did better in 3 KHz , may be the guys on the = east coast usa could take a second look at there dial setting ? I would suggest that linear (frequency translation) has been = egg'd on by wspr and the latest jt6 something mode , very little = use of actual data coms , to date has occurred on 500/477 , may = be the new user group will be more communicative ? Wait and see .. 73 -G.. From: M0FMT=20 Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 8:02 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ? Hi=20 =20 Not sure if that comment is directed at me but I was adding my ten cents = worth to an earlier comment. There is no mandatory requirement to use narrow band modes on the band = it only seems so because it is such a narrow allocation and it makes = sense to only use the key or data. However the Genie is out of the = bottle, I was trying to form a sensible frame work for the use of SSB on = the band. This IMHO must be done as a gentleman=E2=80=99s agreement = otherwise you will encourage the same stupidity we see on VHF around = here where the use of say 70.45 as a casual chat channel as it has = always been begets the RSGB policemen who feel it is their right to jam = the channel and be abusive. I can site the same behavior on 2m as well. = So the channel being used for a casual chat turns into an unusable = channel for all instead of a normal sensible call in to make a general = call the user stations stand by as has always been the procedure. So = whichever way, you get war and that=E2=80=99s not what ham radio is = about. Over regulation and giving individuals the "authority" to be = objectionable just destroys a channel by escalating the anger of the = righteous to protect a cockamamie plan!!=20 If I was the =E2=80=9Cauthority=E2=80=9D I would have only CW and no = other modes on 630m. As said above the Genie is out of the bottle = because of the acceptance of =E2=80=9CLinear=E2=80=9D data modes that = has encouraged the use of the PC and linear Transverters on the band so = it=E2=80=99s a small step to transmit an SSB signal. Getting everybody thinking about what they are doing in a responsible = way is better than Diktat. I rest my case. 73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX From: Alan Melia To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Thursday, 3 January 2013, 1:05 Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ? Just a thought.....when it gets totally washed out with SSB all 24 = hours how are you going to clean it out? People in general dont follow = gentlemen's agreements they were not party too.....and "it doesnt say I = cant in the licence".=20 I fear that, though what you suggest would work, it might encourage = mayhem. I would prefer to see those who feel uncomfortable using a morse = key on other bands, improve their skill on 475 by not being under = HF-band like pressure. I dont listen there now but 10MHz used to be a = guide for what you can expect wher SSB is not actually banned from a = narrow band. Dont forget, to SSB-only ops CW is just interference. The = plus point is they will have to make a transverter first, but then a few = badly aligned tranverters on SSB could be a disaster. I think the = Swedish station was was Gus SM?BHZ, and the SSB wiped out several DX CW = qsos I knew of at the time. It was a commercial licence not an amateur = one, so voice ID may have been in the conditions. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M0FMT=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:30 AM Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ? Hi Graham Geri and all Warren has seen SSB first hand on the MF QRG and we have this side = also.There was an SM station (call sign forgotten?) in the early days of = 500 that added an SSB anouncement on his beacon and it worked well. To my spec. :- "One SSB channel at the high edge of the band only = used during daylight hours no DXing!" add " Use VOX, no monologuing = allowed" to be a laissez faire operation no band plan, but fair play!.73 = es GL es HNY Pete M0FMT IO91UX From: Graham To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 20:48 Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ? Geri 800 Hz B/W ... May be this is something 'Wolf' can code = for you ? a b/w compression / expansion module in SL , to limit = the tx b/w to 800 Hz must be possible to divide by 3 and mult = by 3 with a linear shift as well ? G.. From: Holger 'Geri', DK8KW - DI2BO - W1KW=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 8:36 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ? Hi, I kind of like the idea of an SSB channel. I just pulled out the = conditions of my first secial license for 160m from 1973 or 1974. That = said 1815 to 1835 kHz with 10 Watts in CW, additionally one SSB channel = for 1832 to 1835 kHz, so why not trying this on 630m, too? Here in = Germany we are currently limited to 800 Hz bandwidt but I am sure we can = sork towards a special license under certain conditions such as daylight = operation only .. sounds good to me! Vy 73 Geri, DK8KW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Graham=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 8:58 PM Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ? Hi Pete Its quite obvious that the allocation is quite able to = support normal armature activity , and why not ? its no longer a = experimental allocation , its just the same as 10 or top band , = un expected results today though ! ssb sounds odd , may be as = the path is stable , sstv ? must be a narrow mode , and the = 'new' digital voice is 2KHz , but that requires a linear Tx = path =20 As for the band edge=20 I'm straining to find a engineering reason , that wspr = and qrss has decided to run mid band ? Im sure users had a = reasonable discussion at the introduction of the band , to place = the modes at the edges , with live cw a the lower portion ? its = well know that these long carrier modes cause disruption to = other band users and are well placed at the band edges , = 'vanity beacons' is a term I have seen noted in referral, as = occupancy increases , by users not linked or even aware of = discussions taking place on these groups , i'm sure there will be = problems leading to the introduction of band plan's , for some = the plans form part of the licence conditions .. Is Opera a vanity system ? , actually no, it compliments = ros- data mode in that the ave s/n readings can be used to = determine if a path will support the data mode , each having = the same averaging s/n reading taken along the time line ,=20 73 -G.. From: M0FMT=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 6:21 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ? Hi all One SSB channel at the high edge of the band only used during = daylight hours no DXing! 73 es GL es HNY Pete M0FMT IO91UX From: Graham To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 16:13 Subject: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ? Quite intriguing propagation on this 'new' band=20 From some unexpected early 600 mile + Opera decodes = last night , to several wspr TA decodes , [G8's again ..] = to today's test with Gary using USB-SSB voice ,=20 Where as at 1300z we had 5/9 signals each way as = expected over 25 miles , GI3PDN Ray , called on CW , to give = a report of 5/9 across the Irish Sea , some 100 miles for our = two signals , his CW also in the 5/9/9 region, one wonders how = far inland the signals travelled ? After a short 3 way qso, we closed the test round 1330z = , may not of been quite as sociable after dark , but with a = small Ae , 40 x 70 ft iv L and 35 ft Top load vert , 50 = watts pep , results defiantly superior to say 160 mtrs using = the same Ae's=20 73 -G G0NBD ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01CDEA04.BE1DDF90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pete
 
Funny  you  should  mention  the  = rsgb  , as=20 one of there  technical  board  members  seems  = to  of lead the  charge  to the  middle  of = the =20 band  on wspr  , all  very odd  , actually  it=20 would  only  take  the  grabber  chap's = to  review=20 the  situation and  move the  window  and  = the =20 job  would  be  done , that  only  leaves=20 the   wspr  location to  be finalised , we  = did =20 better  in 3 KHz , may be the  guys  on the   = east=20 coast usa  could  take a  second look  at = there  dial=20 setting ?
 
I = would  suggest=20 that  linear  (frequency  translation)  has  = been =20 egg'd  on by   wspr  and the  latest  = jt6 =20 something  mode , very little  use  of actual  = data =20 coms , to date  has  occurred on  500/477 , may be = the =20 new  user  group  will  be  more =20 communicative   ?
 
Wait and = see  .. 73=20 -G..

From: M0FMT
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 8:02 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band = ?

Hi
 
Not sure if that comment is directed at me but I was adding = my ten=20 cents worth to an earlier comment.
There is no mandatory requirement to use narrow band modes = on the=20 band it only seems so because it is such a narrow allocation and it = makes sense=20 to only use the key or data. However the Genie is out of the bottle, I = was=20 trying to form a sensible frame work for the use of SSB on the band. = This IMHO=20 must be done as a gentleman=E2=80=99s agreement otherwise you will = encourage the same=20 stupidity we see on VHF around here where the use of say 70.45 as a = casual chat=20 channel as it has always been begets the RSGB policemen who feel it is = their=20 right to jam the channel and be abusive. I can site the same behavior on = 2m as=20 well. So the channel being used for a casual chat turns into an unusable = channel=20 for all instead of a normal sensible call in to make a general call the = user=20 stations stand by as has always been the procedure. So whichever way, = you get=20 war and that=E2=80=99s not what ham radio is about. Over regulation and = giving=20 individuals the "authority" to be objectionable just destroys a channel = by=20 escalating the anger of the righteous to protect a cockamamie plan!!=20
If I was the =E2=80=9Cauthority=E2=80=9D I would have only = CW and no other modes on=20 630m. As said above the Genie is out of the bottle because of the = acceptance of=20 =E2=80=9CLinear=E2=80=9D data modes that has encouraged the use of the = PC and linear=20 Transverters on the band so it=E2=80=99s a small step to transmit an SSB = signal.
Getting everybody thinking about what they are doing in a = responsible=20 way is better than Diktat.
I rest my case.
73 es GL Pete M0FMT=20 IO91UX
From: Alan Melia=20 <alan.melia@btinternet.com>
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
Sent: Thursday, 3 = January=20 2013, 1:05
Subject: = Re: LF:=20 477 A local SSB chat band ?

Just a thought.....when it gets = totally washed=20 out with SSB all 24 hours how are you going to clean it out? People in = general=20 dont follow gentlemen's agreements they were not party too.....and "it = doesnt=20 say I cant in the licence". 
 
I fear that, though what you suggest = would work,=20 it might encourage mayhem. I would prefer to see those who feel = uncomfortable=20 using a morse key on other bands, improve their skill on = 475 by not=20 being under HF-band like pressure. I dont listen there now but 10MHz = used to=20 be a guide for what you can expect wher SSB is not actually banned = from a=20 narrow band. Dont forget, to SSB-only ops CW is just = interference. The=20 plus point is they will have to make a transverter first, but then a = few badly=20 aligned tranverters on SSB could be a disaster. I think the Swedish = station=20 was was Gus SM?BHZ, and the SSB wiped out several DX CW qsos I knew of = at the=20 time. It was a commercial licence not an amateur one, so voice=20 ID may have been in the conditions.
 
Alan
G3NYK
 
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 M0FMT =
To:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org=20
Sent:=20 Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:30 AM Subject:=20 Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ?

Hi Graham Geri and all
 
Warren has seen SSB first hand on the MF QRG and we have = this=20 side also.There was an SM station (call sign forgotten?) in the = early days=20 of 500 that added an SSB anouncement on his beacon and it = worked=20 well.
=
 
To my spec. :- "One SSB channel at the high edge = of the=20 band only used during daylight hours no DXing!" add " Use VOX, no=20 monologuing allowed" to be a laissez faire operation no band = plan, but=20 fair play!.73 es GL es HNY Pete M0FMT IO91UX
From: Graham=20 <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
Sent: = Wednesday, 2=20 January 2013, 20:48
Subject: Re: LF: 477 A = local SSB chat=20 band ?

Geri
 
800 Hz  B/W ...  May  be this  is =20 something  'Wolf' can  code  for  you  ? = a =20 b/w   compression / expansion  module in SL  , = to =20 limit the  tx b/w  to  800  Hz must  = be =20 possible to  divide  by  3  and  = mult =20 by  3  with a  linear shift  as  well = ?
 
G..

From: Holger 'Geri', DK8KW - DI2BO - = W1KW=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 8:36 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org=20
Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band = ?

Hi,
 
I kind of like the idea of an SSB = channel. I=20 just pulled out the conditions of my first secial license for 160m = from=20 1973 or 1974. That said 1815 to 1835 kHz with 10 Watts in CW, = additionally=20 one SSB channel for 1832 to 1835 kHz, so why not trying this on = 630m, too?=20 Here in Germany we are currently limited to 800 Hz bandwidt but I = am sure=20 we can sork towards a special license under certain conditions = such as=20 daylight operation only .. sounds good to me!
 
Vy 73
 
Geri, DK8KW
 
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 Graham
To:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org=20 Sent:=20 Wednesday, January 02, 2013 8:58 PM Subject:=20 Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ?

Hi Pete
 
Its  quite  obvious that  the  = allocation =20 is   quite  able  to  support =20 normal   armature  activity , and  why  = not  ? its no  longer a experimental  allocation = , its=20 just the  same  as   10  or top  = band , un=20 expected  results  today though !  ssb  = sounds =20 odd  , may  be  as  the  path is  = stable=20 ,   sstv ?  must  be a  narrow  = mode =20 , and the  'new'  digital  voice  is = 2KHz  ,=20 but that  requires  a  linear  Tx  = path =20
 
As  for  the  band edge
 
 I'm  straining  to  find  a  = engineering   reason  , that  wspr  = and =20 qrss  has  decided to  run mid band ? Im = sure =20 users had a  reasonable discussion  at the =20 introduction  of the  band , to  place the =20 modes  at the  edges , with  live  cw a = the  lower  portion ?  its well  = know =20 that  these  long  carrier  modes  = cause =20 disruption  to  other  band  users and  = are  well  placed  at the  band  = edges=20  , 'vanity  beacons'  is a term I have  = seen  noted  in referral, as occupancy  increases = , by=20 users  not  linked or  even  aware  = of =20  discussions   taking place on these  groups = , i'm=20 sure there  will  be  problems  = leading =20 to  the  introduction  of  band plan's  = ,=20 for  some  the  plans  form  part of = the =20 licence  conditions ..
 
Is Opera  a vanity  system ? , = actually  no,=20 it  compliments   ros-  data  mode in=20 that  the  ave s/n   readings  can be = used=20 to  determine  if  a  path  will =20 support  the  data  mode , each  = having =20 the  same   averaging  s/n  = reading  taken=20 along the  time  line  ,
 
73 -G..
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

From: M0FMT
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 6:21 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org=20
Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band=20 ?

Hi all
 
One SSB channel at the high edge of the band only = used during=20 daylight hours no DXing!

73 es GL es HNY Pete M0FMT IO91UX
From: Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>= ;
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org=20
Sent: = Wednesday, 2=20 January 2013, 16:13
Subject: LF: 477 A = local SSB chat=20 band ?

Quite  intriguing  propagation  on = this =20 'new'  band
 
From  some  unexpected  early  600 = mile =20 +   Opera  decodes  last  night  = ,=20 to  several   wspr   TA  decodes = , =20 [G8's  again = ..]     to  =20 today's   test  with  Gary  = using  =20 USB-SSB  voice ,
 
Where  as at   1300z =20  we  had  5/9  signals each  = way =20 as  expected   over 25 miles  , =20 GI3PDN   Ray  , called  on CW , = to  =20 give  a  report of  5/9 across  the =20 Irish   Sea  , some  100  miles  = for  our  two  signals , his  CW = also  in=20 the  5/9/9  region, one  wonders  = how =20 far  inland  the signals  travelled  = ?
 
After a  short 3  way  qso,  we = closed=20 the  test  round 1330z  ,  may  = not of=20 been  quite  as  sociable  after  = dark =20 , but  with a  small  Ae  , 40 x 70  = ft =20 iv L  and   35  ft  Top load  = vert =20 , 50  watts  pep  , results  = defiantly  =20 superior  to  say  160  mtrs  = using =20 the  same  Ae's
 
73 -G
G0NBD
 
 
=
 






------=_NextPart_000_0050_01CDEA04.BE1DDF90--