Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-de05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 283C338000082; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 20:06:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1TeF2j-0002M2-RG for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 01:05:25 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1TeF2j-0002Ls-75 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 01:05:25 +0000 Received: from smtpout1.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.29] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1TeF2g-0003P4-S9 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 01:05:24 +0000 Received: from AGB ([2.26.21.8]) by mwinf5d11 with ME id Vd511k0040ATmqi03d51Gp; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 02:05:02 +0100 Message-ID: <37DDA2E5DB7B499C92656C9039C3472E@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <50B76F28.6040103@princeton.edu> <50B7728C.9050004@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <425211790.20121129174759@mterrier.net> <50B7981A.8000804@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <3BD64A7C261A4B98BA0FDA8D1B8ED955@White> <850AA386357A433C95B2595C9854AD0E@AGB> <14C68BF34317498EBE981ECB73A249E5@White> In-Reply-To: <14C68BF34317498EBE981ECB73A249E5@White> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 01:05:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: carefully levelled steel track Its funny you mention that , as it occurred to me , using one tone as a frequency marker was a bit like a mono rail , but each to his own , as is demonstrated by JR , gps /time/coherency are not necessary to achieve quite acceptable performance , may be 'we' can persuade dfc31 little brother , to send a ros-mf-2 data mode beacon one night , that's the same s/n as wspr , but is a normal type what you want data mode : ) [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.29 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 5624f0ff3acda0934438723229c028ec Subject: Re: LF: WSJT-X v0.5 r2786_JT9-10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_017F_01CDCE96.B92F6640" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TITLE_EMPTY,MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40cd50b80689291e X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_017F_01CDCE96.B92F6640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable carefully levelled steel track Its funny you mention that , as it occurred to me , using one = tone as a frequency marker was a bit like a mono rail , but each = to his own , as is demonstrated by JR , gps /time/coherency are not = necessary to achieve quite acceptable performance , may be 'we' = can persuade dfc31 little brother , to send a ros-mf-2 data = mode beacon one night , that's the same s/n as wspr , but is a = normal type what you want data mode : ) Wobbly bob is a organic anti coherent compound that is only = available in imperial measures and may be used to induce = instability in carbon based analogue systems , analogous with = Doppler spread and multi path reception=20 >> http://www.phoenixbrewery.co.uk/history.htm Dragon, That's interesting as I believe the export of German = Silver to China was one of the high value luxury goods that was = part of the reciprocal trade at the end of the dynasty , with = plates etc the other way , assume that's where the lucky Dragon = and Kite made its way back , =20 G.. )) From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 10:59 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: WSJT-X v0.5 r2786_JT9-10 Hi Graham, of course I would seriously compare modes, based on conveyed bits per = transmitted energy, or available radiated power. Of course I'd NEVER = EVER dare to compare anything against handmade CW, would I ;-))=20 Won't delve into the numbers again. Well you say Opera may be slower but = is more robust... Then it's like the farm tractor which can master = rumbly ground, while 'JT is the fast train running only on a carefully = leveled steel track? ;-) On the other hand I believe there is a lot more = potential in the Opera modulation scheme, if only it were be transmitted = and received coherently. However looking at my spectrogram with Stefan booming in here, I have to = say I'm glad he's currently not using on-off-keying... But after all we're not on a crusade, hence the smileys ;-) =20 Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) PS what is "wobbly bob"? PPS There's also a German dragon which brings luck to those using it. We = use the same word "Drachen" for dragon and kite ;-) From: Graham=20 Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:47 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: WSJT-X v0.5 r2786_JT9-10 Mk.. Are you seriously comparing a time locked narrow frequency = tolerance MFSK system with one based on a free running = Manchester coded OOK system , immune from Doppler spread and = capable of simultaneous multi decodes running on standard ham = 'wobbly bob' equipment ?=20 Not forgetting the 'wobbly bob' system gives a average of the = signal along to the time line and not a peak (inverted) value , so = direct comparisons are a little misleading , =20 Just the same as say 'Long' means long in English and Dragon = in Mandarin and a English dragon breaths fire and the other one = is made of fishes and brings good luck ...=20 G: ) =20 From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 5:24 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: WSJT-X v0.5 r2786_JT9-10 Stefan, yes, theoretically JT9-10 should work down to SNR -37 dB in 2.5 kHz = (which would read -41 dB on the Opera scale ;-) Each of your transmissions has been decoded here. Are you receiving JT9 = as well? Best 73, MArkus (DF6NM) ...=20 ------=_NextPart_000_017F_01CDCE96.B92F6640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
carefully levelled steel track
 
Its  funny  you  mention  = that  ,=20 as  it occurred to me , using  one tone as  = a  =20 frequency  marker was  a bit  like a  mono rail , = but each=20 to  his  own , as is demonstrated  by JR , gps=20 /time/coherency  are not  necessary to achieve  = quite =20 acceptable   performance , may be  'we'  can =20 persuade  dfc31  little   brother  , to =20 send  a  ros-mf-2  data  mode  = beacon one =20 night , that's  the  same  s/n as wspr    , = but =20 is a  normal type  what  you want  data  = mode :=20 )
 
 
Wobbly bob  is  a  organic   anti = coherent =20    compound  that is only  available  = in  =20 imperial   measures  and may  be used  to  = induce  instability in carbon based   analogue  = systems ,=20 analogous    with  Doppler  spread  and =20 multi  path  reception
 
>> http://www.phoenixbr= ewery.co.uk/history.htm
 
Dragon, That's    interesting  as  I = believe=20 the  export of    German Silver  to  = China =20 was  one of the  high  value  luxury goods = that  was=20 part of the  reciprocal   trade  at the  end of = the  dynasty , with  plates etc  the  = other  way ,=20 assume that's  where  the  lucky  Dragon and = Kite  made=20 its way  back  , 
 
G.. ))
 

From: Markus Vester
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 10:59 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: WSJT-X v0.5 r2786_JT9-10

Hi Graham,
 
of course I would seriously = compare modes,=20 based on conveyed bits per transmitted energy, or available = radiated=20 power. Of course I'd NEVER EVER dare to compare anything = against=20 handmade CW, would I ;-)) 
 
Won't delve into = the numbers=20 again. Well you say Opera may be slower but is more=20 robust... Then it's like the farm tractor which can = master rumbly=20 ground, while 'JT is the fast train running only on a=20 carefully leveled steel track? ;-) On the other hand I believe = there is a=20 lot more potential in the Opera modulation scheme, if only it were be=20 transmitted and received coherently.
 
However looking at = my=20 spectrogram with Stefan booming in here, I have to say I'm glad he's = currently=20 not using on-off-keying...
 
But after all we're = not on=20 a crusade, hence the smileys ;-)  
 
Best = 73,
Markus = (DF6NM)
 
PS what is "wobbly=20 bob"?
PPS There's also a = German dragon=20 which brings luck to those using it. We use the same word = "Drachen" for dragon and kite ;-)

From: Graham
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: LF: WSJT-X v0.5 r2786_JT9-10

Mk..
 
Are you  seriously  comparing  a time =20 locked   narrow  frequency   tolerance =20  MFSK    system with one  based = on  =20  a  free running  Manchester  coded    = OOK =20 system , immune  from  Doppler  spread and =  capable=20 of  simultaneous  multi  decodes  =  running =20 on  standard  ham 'wobbly bob'   equipment ?
 
Not  forgetting  the  'wobbly bob'  = system  =20 gives a  average of the  signal  along to the time =20 line  and not a  peak  (inverted) value , so  direct = comparisons  are a  little  misleading  ,  =
 
Just the  same  as  say  'Long'  = means =20 long  in English   and  Dragon  in = Mandarin  and=20 a  English  dragon  breaths  fire  and = the =20 other  one  is  made of  fishes and  brings = good =20 luck ...
 
G: )
 

 
From: Markus Vester
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 5:24 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: WSJT-X v0.5 r2786_JT9-10

Stefan,
 
yes, theoretically JT9-10 should work = down to SNR=20 -37 dB in 2.5 kHz (which would read -41 dB on the Opera scale = ;-)
 
Each of your = transmissions has been=20 decoded here. Are you receiving JT9 as well?
 
Best 73,
MArkus (DF6NM)
... 
 
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