Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dc03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 22980380000C0; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 18:01:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1TeD5c-0001At-1B for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 23:00:16 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1TeD5b-0001Ak-Bp for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 23:00:15 +0000 Received: from imr-da01.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.143]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1TeD5Z-0002vD-5q for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 23:00:14 +0000 Received: from mtaout-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.194]) by imr-da01.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 7E30D1C000122 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 17:59:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from White (nrbg-4dbe76aa.pool.mediaWays.net [77.190.118.170]) by mtaout-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPA id 99882E00009C for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 17:59:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <14C68BF34317498EBE981ECB73A249E5@White> From: "Markus Vester" To: References: <50B76F28.6040103@princeton.edu> <50B7728C.9050004@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <425211790.20121129174759@mterrier.net> <50B7981A.8000804@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <3BD64A7C261A4B98BA0FDA8D1B8ED955@White> <850AA386357A433C95B2595C9854AD0E@AGB> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 23:59:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 12.0.1606 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V12.0.1606 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1354229991; bh=iq8UVGgIDXFgtRaJoobwk4HbLEebByW3jKoiVymTRno=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mgkhWpXKodA3epgFLSi85jpSnCWzDeLQ8RQn3qdQHQtG7lOhgNnFrtPwnK/dGRxIz nJLrhcK++kTFgT2Ekh49QqTPRsBW2vxa4o3aCsebbSRhI84ceH77WdqDCYt8VkIPqi GpZb8giGPKjmz5xx9ibNsjXWyt+EnAIV8olngu10= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:378586848:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Graham, of course I would seriously compare modes, based on conveyed bits per transmitted energy, or available radiated power. Of course I'd NEVER EVER dare to compare anything against handmade CW, would I ;-)) [...] Content analysis details: (-0.4 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [205.188.105.143 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (markusvester[at]aol.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.4 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 78d45eae26b8e09cb3b944588f353c28 Subject: Re: LF: WSJT-X v0.5 r2786_JT9-10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01CDCE8D.9C9C1E00" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TITLE_EMPTY,MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtain-dc03.r1000.mx.aol.com ; domain : mx.aol.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d408350b7e92e598f X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01CDCE8D.9C9C1E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Graham, of course I would seriously compare modes, based on conveyed bits per = transmitted energy, or available radiated power. Of course I'd NEVER = EVER dare to compare anything against handmade CW, would I ;-))=20 Won't delve into the numbers again. Well you say Opera may be slower but = is more robust... Then it's like the farm tractor which can master = rumbly ground, while 'JT is the fast train running only on a carefully = leveled steel track? ;-) On the other hand I believe there is a lot more = potential in the Opera modulation scheme, if only it were be transmitted = and received coherently. However looking at my spectrogram with Stefan booming in here, I have to = say I'm glad he's currently not using on-off-keying... But after all we're not on a crusade, hence the smileys ;-) =20 Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) PS what is "wobbly bob"? PPS There's also a German dragon which brings luck to those using it. We = use the same word "Drachen" for dragon and kite ;-) From: Graham=20 Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:47 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: WSJT-X v0.5 r2786_JT9-10 Mk.. Are you seriously comparing a time locked narrow frequency = tolerance MFSK system with one based on a free running = Manchester coded OOK system , immune from Doppler spread and = capable of simultaneous multi decodes running on standard ham = 'wobbly bob' equipment ?=20 Not forgetting the 'wobbly bob' system gives a average of the = signal along to the time line and not a peak (inverted) value , so = direct comparisons are a little misleading , =20 Just the same as say 'Long' means long in English and Dragon = in Mandarin and a English dragon breaths fire and the other one = is made of fishes and brings good luck ...=20 G: ) =20 From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 5:24 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: WSJT-X v0.5 r2786_JT9-10 Stefan, yes, theoretically JT9-10 should work down to SNR -37 dB in 2.5 kHz = (which would read -41 dB on the Opera scale ;-) Each of your transmissions has been decoded here. Are you receiving JT9 = as well? Best 73, MArkus (DF6NM) ...=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01CDCE8D.9C9C1E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Graham,
 
of course I would seriously = compare modes,=20 based on conveyed bits per transmitted energy, or available = radiated=20 power. Of course I'd NEVER EVER dare to compare anything = against=20 handmade CW, would I ;-)) 
 
Won't delve into the = numbers again.=20 Well you say Opera may be slower but is more = robust... Then=20 it's like the farm tractor which can master rumbly ground, = while=20 'JT is the fast train running only on a carefully leveled = steel=20 track? ;-) On the other hand I believe there is a lot more potential in = the=20 Opera modulation scheme, if only it were be transmitted and received=20 coherently.
 
However looking at = my=20 spectrogram with Stefan booming in here, I have to say I'm glad he's = currently=20 not using on-off-keying...
 
But after all we're = not on=20 a crusade, hence the smileys ;-)  
 
Best = 73,
Markus = (DF6NM)
 
PS what is "wobbly=20 bob"?
PPS There's also a = German dragon=20 which brings luck to those using it. We use the same word = "Drachen" for dragon and kite ;-)

From: Graham
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: LF: WSJT-X v0.5 r2786_JT9-10

Mk..
 
Are you  seriously  comparing  a time =20 locked   narrow  frequency   tolerance =20  MFSK    system with one  based = on  =20  a  free running  Manchester  coded    = OOK =20 system , immune  from  Doppler  spread and =  capable=20 of  simultaneous  multi  decodes  =  running =20 on  standard  ham 'wobbly bob'   equipment ?
 
Not  forgetting  the  'wobbly bob'  = system  =20 gives a  average of the  signal  along to the time =20 line  and not a  peak  (inverted) value , so  direct = comparisons  are a  little  misleading  ,  =
 
Just the  same  as  say  'Long'  = means =20 long  in English   and  Dragon  in = Mandarin  and=20 a  English  dragon  breaths  fire  and = the =20 other  one  is  made of  fishes and  brings = good =20 luck ...
 
G: )
 

 
From: Markus Vester
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 5:24 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: WSJT-X v0.5 r2786_JT9-10

Stefan,
 
yes, theoretically JT9-10 should work = down to SNR=20 -37 dB in 2.5 kHz (which would read -41 dB on the Opera scale = ;-)
 
Each of your = transmissions has been=20 decoded here. Are you receiving JT9 as well?
 
Best 73,
MArkus (DF6NM)
... 
 
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