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From: Laurence KL1 X <hellozerohellozero@hotmail.com>
To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 12:45:00 -0800
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Subject: RE: LF: Re: 630m Band Plan
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I dont think NDB's are dying quite yet - I installed/commisisoned 7 new one=
s the year before last :-)=2C but some parts of the world they are dissapea=
ring slowly save the private ones. Its a bit like saying CW is old and not =
used commercially where as if you happen to be in East or South Africa=2C C=
hina or other far flungs its still used a lot by the military and civilians=
 who just can bear to be without a simple back up (see Independance Day fil=
m etc) :-)   Laurence KL7UK
 From: KKorn42@aol.com
Date: Fri=2C 5 Oct 2012 16:20:10 -0400
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: Re: 630m Band Plan







Dear All=2C do you remember?=20

We wrote: =93as a first proposal for discussion we present a "plan=94. The=
=20
key words were: =93first=94=2C =93proposal=94 and =93=94plan=94=94 (in quot=
ation marks!).
We=20
continued to emphasize again: =93it is a first basis and proposal=94 and =
=93those who=20
have an interest in operation between 472kHz and 479kHz ... are invited to=
=20
agree=2C discuss or provide better ideas=94.

We got 13 replies and we would like to summarize what we learned.

- We never wanted to =93impose upon the rest of the world=94 our ideas.=20
Webster explaines: to impose =96 to establish or apply as compulsory. As st=
ated=20
above=2C it was meant as an idea=2C a proposal. Maybe our use of the word =
=93plan=94=20
(although in q.m.) was feared as an insinuation to a rigid enforcement. Nev=
er=20
our idea!

- =93Let=92s wait and then decide=94. Do you remember that there was alread=
y=20
an open question whether or not there is a plan to follow. In the WSPR foru=
m the=20
same question was asked by a ham from UK. Our idea was: let us discuss now=
=2C so=20
we have a basis / proposal for the times when (hopefully) many countries ar=
e=20
allowed to join. And who is going to =93decide=94? Upon what basis? And whe=
n?

-  =93I remember that dividing regular CW and QRSS/digital modes in=20
the old days on 136 kHz had helped to coexist peacefully for over a decade =
now.=94=20
Obviously it is good practice to think about where on the band what mode is=
=20
practised. On all HF bands CW has no restrictions=2C but it is practised in=
 the=20
lower portion. So why not follow that habit here?

- =93calling frequency / frequencies=94 was the request of a very active=20
ham.  =93So it is important to have some 100 Hz of free spectrum arround a =
CW=20
calling frequency=94=3B reason: because CW filters may be not narrow enough=
.

- =93good idea to have narrow guard bands around existing aeronautical=20
beacons=94: it is trivial=2C that other regions in the world will probably =
need=20
different such guards. Just to clarify: a pilot will tune to the frequ (in =
kHz=2C=20
no fractions) of a NDB and expects that the relevant Instrument will show h=
im=20
the direction to that NDB relative to his AC. He will listen to the ID just=
 to=20
make sure. Hopefully e.g. a QRSS Station on top will not disturb the instru=
ment?=20
Most probably our power restrictions will show that this safeguard unnecess=
ary=3B=20
we introduced it as an additional good will act. NDBs are a dying species.

- =93(I am a) strong promoter of the narrow QRSS/DFCW 60 slots for=20
intercontinental work ... and reasonably spaced from subbands with local=20
signals=94 this calls for some sort of regulation within the community.

- =93I intend to work primarily CW ... I do not intend to use UNATTENDED=20
BROADCAST/BEACON MODES=94. OK=2C fine=2C but this is a personal view and pr=
eference=20
and does not help any further. As we wrote: =93those who have an interest i=
n=20
operation between 472kHz and 479kHz ... are invited to agree=2C discuss or =
provide=20
better ideas=94.

- =93Beacons within the IF filter bandwidth of many analog receivers=20
around 472.5 kHz=2C ... - please don't. Also consider that=2C at the moment=
=2C the=20
"lower end" of the band is the most valuable part of it. ...IMHO=2C beacons=
 there=20
are evil.=94 This implies=2C that a certain portion of the band is =93bette=
r=94 and=20
should be used only for a certain type of operation. Others=2C please go so=
mewhere=20
else and esp. beacons are regarded as =93unwelcome=94. Hams are a multiface=
d=20
community=2C we can not hinder someone from establishing a (e.g. WSPR) =93b=
eacon=94.=20
They can not be compared with the existing NDBs. So a mutual agreement has =
to be=20
reached in the future (see above: =93first=94 & =93proposal=94!).
=93Let's=20
coordinate things here=2C and on "the other" group as necessary. We need a =
lot of=20
flexibility on MF=94 Fine!.
Gentlemen: =93Switch black box Beacon on then go away=20
for the day or go to bed and check later on the Internet database to see if=
=20
Black box has made it to Kalahatungutee. ... Not forgetting to click on 'au=
to=20
QSO' and 'upload QSL' buttons.=94 remarks like that do not help in any way =
and are=20
humiliating to others.

- =93... if you understand =91band plan=92 as a useful hint for newcomers=20
(RX- and TXwise) where it may be useful to listen or to call  e.g. in CW or=
=20
where to set the =91dial=92 for WSPR decoding=2C then i cannot find somethi=
ng bad on=20
it.=94 Correct=2C our idea!
=93If we start to collect our experiences why it is=20
useful to use that QRG for that mode=2C then why not. ... But many countrie=
s=2C=20
experiences and time should form this plan=2C not only the German amateurs=
=2C ....=20
That means=2C probably the plan will form itself!=94 This hopefully will ha=
ppen=2C but=20
we thought=2C that discussed on a proposal would be a better starting. And=
=20
remember: the question re such a proposal already exists.

- =93About QRSS/DFCW i think one can use a frequency which is close to=20
the carrier of  a NDB: First=2C there will be no CW station close to the=20
carrier. Second=2C the QRSS/DFCW signal is not affected by the presence of =
the NBD=20
carrier.=94 Hopefully it is not quite the reverse.

- =93Concentrating the digimodes on the upper part of the band is not bad=20
... the active stations will define where the center or "dial" frequency of=
=20
which mode will be.=94 Exactly=2C but now they are sitting on top of each=20
other.

- =93Dial frequency means nothing for those of us in CW rx mode=94. Correct=
=20
(personal statement) but does not help in any way for others: =93Modern dat=
a modes=20
are ... frequency  agile ... so the rx end has to know where to set the rx=
=20
dial to intercept them.=94 Which leads to some sort of mutual understanding=
 /=20
rules.=20
And further: =93Many of the transmissions will be under the noise level=20
... and require a defined slot to function=94.

End of inputs.

Please think about the remarks of your fellow hams and their approach=20
re. a =93band plan=94=3B and think about the future of this special band=2C=
 that=20
hopefully will see many more countries participating.
And be prepared=2C that=20
without some generally accepted rules to follow=2C it will be more complica=
ted to=20
enjoy the allocated 7kHz.
=20
73
de
Walter=2C Roland=2C Klaus
 		 	   		  =

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>
I dont think NDB's are dying quite yet&nbsp=3B- I installed/commisisoned 7 =
new ones&nbsp=3Bthe year before last :-)=2C but some parts of the world the=
y are dissapearing slowly save the private ones.<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>Its a bit l=
ike saying CW is old and not used commercially where as if you happen to be=
 in East or South Africa=2C China or other far flungs its still used a lot =
by the military and civilians who just can bear to be without a simple back=
 up (see Independance Day film etc) :-)<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>&nbsp=3B=
<BR>Laurence KL7UK<br>&nbsp=3B<BR><div><div id=3D"SkyDrivePlaceholder"></di=
v><hr id=3D"stopSpelling">From: KKorn42@aol.com<br>Date: Fri=2C 5 Oct 2012 =
16:20:10 -0400<br>To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org<br>Subject: LF: Re: 630m=
 Band Plan<br><br>



<font id=3D"ecxrole_document" color=3D"#004080" size=3D"3" face=3D"Comic Sa=
ns MS">
<div>
<div>Dear All=2C do you remember? </div>
<div><br>We wrote: =93as a first proposal for discussion we present a "plan=
=94. The=20
key words were: =93first=94=2C =93proposal=94 and =93=94plan=94=94 (in quot=
ation marks!).<br>We=20
continued to emphasize again: =93it is a first basis and proposal=94 and =
=93those who=20
have an interest in operation between 472kHz and 479kHz ... are invited to=
=20
agree=2C discuss or provide better ideas=94.</div>
<div><br>We got 13 replies and we would like to summarize what we learned.<=
/div>
<div><br>- We never wanted to =93impose upon the rest of the world=94 our i=
deas.=20
Webster explaines: to impose =96 to establish or apply as compulsory. As st=
ated=20
above=2C it was meant as an idea=2C a proposal. Maybe our use of the word =
=93plan=94=20
(although in q.m.) was feared as an insinuation to a rigid enforcement. Nev=
er=20
our idea!</div>
<div><br>- =93Let=92s wait and then decide=94. Do you remember that there w=
as already=20
an open question whether or not there is a plan to follow. In the WSPR foru=
m the=20
same question was asked by a ham from UK. Our idea was: let us discuss now=
=2C so=20
we have a basis / proposal for the times when (hopefully) many countries ar=
e=20
allowed to join. And who is going to =93decide=94? Upon what basis? And whe=
n?</div>
<div><br>-&nbsp=3B =93I remember that dividing regular CW and QRSS/digital =
modes in=20
the old days on 136 kHz had helped to coexist peacefully for over a decade =
now.=94=20
Obviously it is good practice to think about where on the band what mode is=
=20
practised. On all HF bands CW has no restrictions=2C but it is practised in=
 the=20
lower portion. So why not follow that habit here?</div>
<div><br>- =93calling frequency / frequencies=94 was the request of a very =
active=20
ham.&nbsp=3B =93So it is important to have some 100 Hz of free spectrum arr=
ound a CW=20
calling frequency=94=3B reason: because CW filters may be not narrow enough=
.</div>
<div><br>- =93good idea to have narrow guard bands around existing aeronaut=
ical=20
beacons=94: it is trivial=2C that other regions in the world will probably =
need=20
different such guards. Just to clarify: a pilot will tune to the frequ (in =
kHz=2C=20
no fractions) of a NDB and expects that the relevant Instrument will show h=
im=20
the direction to that NDB relative to his AC. He will listen to the ID just=
 to=20
make sure. Hopefully e.g. a QRSS Station on top will not disturb the instru=
ment?=20
Most probably our power restrictions will show that this safeguard unnecess=
ary=3B=20
we introduced it as an additional good will act. NDBs are a dying species.<=
/div>
<div><br>- =93(I am a) strong promoter of the narrow QRSS/DFCW 60 slots for=
=20
intercontinental work ... and reasonably spaced from subbands with local=20
signals=94 this calls for some sort of regulation within the community.</di=
v>
<div><br>- =93I intend to work primarily CW ... I do not intend to use UNAT=
TENDED=20
BROADCAST/BEACON MODES=94. OK=2C fine=2C but this is a personal view and pr=
eference=20
and does not help any further. As we wrote: =93those who have an interest i=
n=20
operation between 472kHz and 479kHz ... are invited to agree=2C discuss or =
provide=20
better ideas=94.</div>
<div><br>- =93Beacons within the IF filter bandwidth of many analog receive=
rs=20
around 472.5 kHz=2C ... - please don't. Also consider that=2C at the moment=
=2C the=20
"lower end" of the band is the most valuable part of it. ...IMHO=2C beacons=
 there=20
are evil.=94 This implies=2C that a certain portion of the band is =93bette=
r=94 and=20
should be used only for a certain type of operation. Others=2C please go so=
mewhere=20
else and esp. beacons are regarded as =93unwelcome=94. Hams are a multiface=
d=20
community=2C we can not hinder someone from establishing a (e.g. WSPR) =93b=
eacon=94.=20
They can not be compared with the existing NDBs. So a mutual agreement has =
to be=20
reached in the future (see above: =93first=94 &amp=3B =93proposal=94!).<br>=
=93Let's=20
coordinate things here=2C and on "the other" group as necessary. We need a =
lot of=20
flexibility on MF=94 Fine!.<br>Gentlemen: =93Switch black box Beacon on the=
n go away=20
for the day or go to bed and check later on the Internet database to see if=
=20
Black box has made it to Kalahatungutee. ... Not forgetting to click on 'au=
to=20
QSO' and 'upload QSL' buttons.=94 remarks like that do not help in any way =
and are=20
humiliating to others.</div>
<div><br>- =93... if you understand =91band plan=92 as a useful hint for ne=
wcomers=20
(RX- and TXwise) where it may be useful to listen or to call&nbsp=3B e.g. i=
n CW or=20
where to set the =91dial=92 for WSPR decoding=2C then i cannot find somethi=
ng bad on=20
it.=94 Correct=2C our idea!<br>=93If we start to collect our experiences wh=
y it is=20
useful to use that QRG for that mode=2C then why not. ... But many countrie=
s=2C=20
experiences and time should form this plan=2C not only the German amateurs=
=2C ....=20
That means=2C probably the plan will form itself!=94 This hopefully will ha=
ppen=2C but=20
we thought=2C that discussed on a proposal would be a better starting. And=
=20
remember: the question re such a proposal already exists.</div>
<div><br>- =93About QRSS/DFCW i think one can use a frequency which is clos=
e to=20
the carrier of&nbsp=3B a NDB: First=2C there will be no CW station close to=
 the=20
carrier. Second=2C the QRSS/DFCW signal is not affected by the presence of =
the NBD=20
carrier.=94 Hopefully it is not quite the reverse.</div>
<div><br>- =93Concentrating the digimodes on the upper part of the band is =
not bad=20
... the active stations will define where the center or "dial" frequency of=
=20
which mode will be.=94 Exactly=2C but now they are sitting on top of each=20
other.</div>
<div><br>- =93Dial frequency means nothing for those of us in CW rx mode=94=
. Correct=20
(personal statement) but does not help in any way for others: =93Modern dat=
a modes=20
are ... frequency&nbsp=3B agile ... so the rx end has to know where to set =
the rx=20
dial to intercept them.=94 Which leads to some sort of mutual understanding=
 /=20
rules. <br>And further: =93Many of the transmissions will be under the nois=
e level=20
... and require a defined slot to function=94.</div>
<div><br>End of inputs.</div>
<div><br>Please think about the remarks of your fellow hams and their appro=
ach=20
re. a =93band plan=94=3B and think about the future of this special band=2C=
 that=20
hopefully will see many more countries participating.<br>And be prepared=2C=
 that=20
without some generally accepted rules to follow=2C it will be more complica=
ted to=20
enjoy the allocated 7kHz.</div>
<div>&nbsp=3B</div>
<div>73</div>
<div>de</div>
<div>Walter=2C Roland=2C Klaus<br></div></div></font></div> 		 	   		  </di=
v></body>
</html>=

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