Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dl06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 20A1C38000086; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 16:47:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1TFWap-0003sf-Vy for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 21:46:27 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1TFWap-0003sW-6t for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 21:46:27 +0100 Received: from smtpout2.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.42] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1TFWam-0008TS-L7 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 21:46:26 +0100 Received: from AGB ([2.26.45.164]) by mwinf5d20 with ME id 2LmN1k00K3YXwSi03LmNG9; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 22:46:23 +0200 Message-ID: <9304BDD1A69A40138027AF90AC243771@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <7F2208077DA448F78F384AF5B55DECA0@White> <505DD1D8.70901@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <829FB31FADAD4D4682EC509D2416C9F4@AGB> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 21:46:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Yes , Marco The user interface is indeed simple , and the equipment/system over heads are minimal , also can add, the system was designed to allow access to data for the many CW and QRSS transmitters on 136/500 .... however the DSP engine is where the real work is carried out , (under wraps of course) , the low level of false decodes and s/n levels , gives a insight to the development in this area , [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.42 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 3baad269c730f433fa7a2a39996c9383 Subject: Re: LF: Re: Experimental software for WSPR-8 and -32 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0084_01CD990B.B4F1AE00" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d4ad4505e23d919e6 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01CD990B.B4F1AE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes , Marco=20 The user interface is indeed simple , and the equipment/system = over heads are minimal , also can add, the system was designed to = allow access to data for the many CW and QRSS transmitters = on 136/500 .... however the DSP engine is where the real work = is carried out , (under wraps of course) , the low level of false = decodes and s/n levels , gives a insight to the development in = this area ,=20 No time locking=20 No sound card calibration=20 Lax frequency stability requirements=20 OOK or FSK may be used =20 The On/Off keying has benefits other than allowing access via = simple Tx systems , it gives immunity to Doppler spread and = allows the averaging of the data to be used for detection , whilst = embodying non-liner routines to eliminate static crash problems . = it not being possible to 'loose' lock , due to the coding scheme . = performance on vhf is also significant and the system has been = included in the next generation of vhf smart beacons. =20 I think the difference between data demodulation and carrier = detection are often blurred , Markus correlation process is = notable , with a 10 dB gain, however , the Tx pattern is detected = / compared against 'known reference' , the same during the = testing of the OP4 Hr , 8k audio mode , at -50 dB was 10 dB = sort of the spec-lab detection level , but again that was a = data / carrier comparison , 8K has yet to be seriously air-tested , = its quite possible , Stefan will achieve considerable range , if = he transmits at the previous test levels , due to the long tx = pulses , the Op4 Hr signal , also shows on spec-lab , so test = data is not lost if decode fails. As to what is better , that remains to be seen under operational = conditions , Jose is quite confident the OP on/off system is fit = for purpose and predicts a practical gain of only -3 dB from a = change to the modem to mfsk or psk , ( theoretical levels are = -6 ) but these do not take realistic path variations into account = , exchanges have taken place on this subject , a psk version could = be some -5/6 dB better , but then access by all but very few = MF/LF stations would be possible ,=20 The benefits of the combined data processing and modulation scheme = can be demonstrated to off set the dB losses=20 73 -G.. From: IK1WVQ Mauro=20 Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:38 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: Experimental software for WSPR-8 and -32 hi, "simple" =3D=20 - modulation ON-OFF , no needs for linear P.A. - no precise timing (=3D little beacons stand_alone. no PC.) - TX only 50% on. (to take in mind when compare whith other "continous" = mode at parity of output power.)=20 - the coding scheme is more robust than WSPR.=20 73 de Mauro IK1WVQ At 17.36 22/09/12, you wrote: Interesting ... =20 Define 'simple' ? =20 G.. From: IK1WVQ Mauro=20 Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 4:21 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: Experimental software for WSPR-8 and -32 Hi to all, only a question to the experts: is the SLOW WSPR better than the simple OPERA-32 ??? 73 de Mauro K1WVQ At 16.57 22/09/12, you wrote: Hi Markus, LF,=20 It works! First reception of DF6NM in WSPR-8 here. Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az=20 2012-09-22 14:40 DF6NM 0.137538 0 0 JN59nj 0.5 = DK7FC/8 JN49ik 175 272 =20 2012-09-22 14:30 DK7FC 0.137499 +13 0 JN49ik 1 = DK7FC/8 JN49ik 0 0=20 I have used a virtual audio cable, with success. For those who still try without success, here is my description in = simple words. If your RX is a HF TRX at 136 kHz dial setting, then the tone of = DF6NM appears at 1440 Hz, the tone of DK7FC appears at 1430 Hz. The microphone input is used and it must be defined as the standard = audio input device. This is important since the SounInput program = related always to the default input. Then soundinput generates the audio file and replays it in = SoundOutput. SoundOutput replays it to the standard audio output device, which is = the virtual audio cable 1 for me. So VAC1 must be defined as the = standard output device! The sound input of the WSPR software must be set to VAC1 too. The file wspr-8_rx.bat must be edited. If the BFO frequency in the = WSPR software is 1500 Hz, then this value must be inserted for fc in the = row for the soundoutput settings. Set the value for fc for soundinput (the row below) to 1450 Hz and = save the file. Then double click wspr-8_rx.bat and wait some minutes. You may watch = the small souninput and soundoutput windows... Hope it works for others as well now. 73, Stefan7DK7FC Nessun virus nel messaggio in arrivo. Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com=20 Versione: 9.0.930 / Database dei virus: 2441.1.1/5285 - Data di = rilascio: 09/22/12 08:34:00 Nessun virus nel messaggio in arrivo. Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com=20 Versione: 9.0.930 / Database dei virus: 2441.1.1/5285 - Data di = rilascio: 09/22/12 08:34:00 ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01CD990B.B4F1AE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes , Marco
 
 The  user  interface  is  indeed = simple  ,=20 and the  equipment/system  over  heads  are  = minimal ,=20 also  can add,  the  system was  designed to  = allow=20 access  to  data  for  the  many   = CW =20 and  QRSS    transmitters on 136/500  ....=20 however   the DSP  engine  is where  = the =20 real   work is  carried out  , (under wraps of  = course)  , the  low level  of false  decodes  = and =20 s/n   levels , gives  a  insight  to = the =20 development  in this  area ,
 
No  time  locking
No  sound  card  calibration
Lax  frequency  stability  requirements
OOK or  FSK   may  be  used 
 
The  On/Off keying  has benefits  other   = than=20 allowing  access via simple  Tx systems , it =20 gives  immunity  to  Doppler =20 spread  and  allows  the  averaging of = the  data=20 to be  used for  detection  , whilst  = embodying  =20 non-liner  routines  to eliminate static crash  problems = . =20 it not being possible to  'loose'  lock  , due to = the =20 coding scheme .  performance  on vhf  is  also=20 significant  and the  system has been  included  in=20 the  next  generation  of  vhf smart beacons.  =  =20
 
I think  the difference  between   data =20 demodulation  and carrier detection  are often  blurred , = Markus   correlation  process  is  notable , = with=20 a  10 dB gain, however , the  Tx  pattern  is =20 detected  / compared  against 'known  = reference'   ,=20 the  same  during the  testing  of  the  = OP4 Hr ,=20 8k audio  mode ,  at   -50 dB  was  10 dB=20 sort  of the  spec-lab   detection  level  = ,=20 but  again that  was a   data / carrier comparison , 8K = has yet=20 to  be  seriously   air-tested , its  = quite =20 possible  , Stefan  will  achieve considerable  = range , if=20 he transmits  at the  previous  test  levels  = , =20 due to  the  long tx pulses , the  Op4 Hr   = signal ,=20 also  shows  on spec-lab , so  test  data  is = not =20 lost  if  decode  fails.
 
 
As to  what is  better , that  remains  = to  be=20 seen under  operational  conditions , Jose  is  = quite =20 confident  the  OP on/off  system is  fit  = for =20 purpose and  predicts a  practical  gain  of  = only=20   -3 dB   from a  change  to  = the  modem=20 to  mfsk  or  psk , ( theoretical   levels  = are =20 -6 ) but  these  do  not  take realistic path=20 variations  into  account ,  exchanges have  taken=20 place  on this  subject , a psk  version  = could  be=20 some  -5/6 dB better , but then  access  by  = all =20 but very  few   MF/LF  stations  would  = be =20 possible ,
 
The  benefits  of the  combined  data = processing =20 and modulation  scheme   can  be  demonstrated = to =20 off  set the  dB losses 
 
73 -G..
 
 
 
 
 

From: IK1WVQ Mauro
Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:38 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: Re: Experimental software for WSPR-8 and=20 -32

hi,

"simple" =3D
- modulation ON-OFF , no = needs for=20 linear P.A.
- no precise timing (=3D little beacons stand_alone. no = PC.)
-=20 TX only 50% on. (to take in mind when compare whith other "continous" = mode at=20 parity of output power.)
- the coding scheme is more robust than = WSPR.=20

73 de Mauro IK1WVQ


At 17.36 22/09/12, you wrote:
Interesting =20 ...
 
Define  'simple' =20 ?
 
G..

From: IK1WVQ=20 Mauro
Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 4:21 = PM
To:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: Re: Experimental software for WSPR-8 and=20 -32

Hi to all,

only a question to the experts:

is = the=20 SLOW WSPR better than the simple OPERA-32 ???

73 de Mauro=20 K1WVQ




At 16.57 22/09/12, you wrote:
Hi Markus, LF, =

It works!=20 First reception of DF6NM in WSPR-8 here.

Timestamp Call MHz = SNR Drift=20 Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az
 2012-09-22 14:40   = DF6NM   0.137538   0   0  =20 JN59nj   0.5   DK7FC/8   = JN49ik  =20 175   272 
 2012-09-22 14:30  =20 DK7FC   0.137499   +13   0   = JN49ik   1   DK7FC/8   = JN49ik  =20 0   0

I have used a virtual audio cable, with=20 success.


For those who still try without success, here is = my=20 description in simple words.

If your RX is a HF TRX at 136 = kHz dial=20 setting, then the tone of DF6NM appears at 1440 Hz, the tone of = DK7FC=20 appears at 1430 Hz.

The microphone input is used and it must = be=20 defined as the standard audio input device. This is important since = the=20 SounInput program related always to the default input.

Then=20 soundinput generates the audio file and replays it in=20 SoundOutput.

SoundOutput replays it to the standard audio = output=20 device, which is the virtual audio cable 1 for me. So VAC1 must be = defined=20 as the standard output device!

The sound input of the WSPR = software=20 must be set to VAC1 too.

The file wspr-8_rx.bat must be = edited. If=20 the BFO frequency in the WSPR software is 1500 Hz, then this value = must be=20 inserted for fc in the row for the soundoutput settings.

Set = the=20 value for fc for soundinput (the row below) to 1450 Hz and save the=20 file.

Then double click wspr-8_rx.bat and wait some minutes. = You may=20 watch the small souninput and soundoutput windows...

Hope it = works=20 for others as well now.

73, Stefan7DK7FC


Nessun = virus nel=20 messaggio in arrivo.
Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com
Versione: 9.0.930 / Database = dei virus:=20 2441.1.1/5285 -  Data di rilascio: 09/22/12=20 08:34:00

Nessun virus nel messaggio in = arrivo.
Controllato=20 da AVG - www.avg.com=20
Versione: 9.0.930 / Database dei virus: 2441.1.1/5285 -  Data = di=20 rilascio: 09/22/12 08:34:00
------=_NextPart_000_0084_01CD990B.B4F1AE00--