Message-ID: <5065A8B1.30106@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 15:40:01 +0200
From: =?UTF-8?B?U3RlZmFuIFNjaMOkZmVy?= <Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
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Subject: Re: LF: RE: 630m Band Plan
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Hello all,

Maybe we have to differnciate what people do understand as "band plan":

A typical band plan leads some OMs to complain about others like  "Hey=20
you have done QRSS on 47x.x kHz but this is the WSPR slot!" which is=20
nonsense for me. Here "band plan" is treated as a _law_ where people=20
have to stick on. And this is what we do not need from my point of view.

However, if you understand "band plan" as a _useful hint for newcomers_=20
(RX- and TXwise) where it may be useful to listen or to call  e.g. in CW=20
or where to set the "dial" for WSPR decoding, then i cannot find=20
something bad on it. If we start to collect our experiences why it is=20
useful to use that QRG for that mode, then why not. But many countries,=20
experiences and _time_ should form this plan, not only the German=20
amateurs, just because we are the first ones who actually use the band.=20
That means, probably the paln will form itselfe!

Furthermore this 630m band is different to the typical HF bands and even=20
LF. We have different NDBs inside the band which cause QRM to us and we=20
can cause QRM to them. This should be avoided of course. If 630m will=20
become a world wide allocation in some time i can hardly imagine that=20
the world will spend significant interest to a "B31 band plan". The EUs=20
NDBs are not really interesting for Japan and maybe Japan or other IARU=20
contries will have other noise sources on other frequencies in the band.

I can absolutely not understand why the lowest 3 kHz should be reserved=20
for CW. Is there a real understandable reason for this? Just because the=20
lower parts of any HF band is reserved for CW? Please let me or us know!
 From my point of view, a real argument is: CW is (probably) the only=20
mode on 630m where the OM/YL does really listen into the noise. This is=20
mostly done with a 500Hz or maybe 250 Hz CW filter. Yes, there are 100=20
Hz software based CW filters but it is no fun to listen to CW through=20
such a filter... So it is important to have some 100 Hz of free spectrum=20
arround a CW calling frequency. Think about homebrewers who use a=20
homemade CW filter which has not the performance of a proffessional HF=20
TRX filter...
For 472.5 kHz this is OK but the next and only really clear CW QRG is=20
476.5 kHz. So why not saying "472.5 kHz is the first calling frequency=20
where OMs can park their RX to listen for calling stations" and "If=20
472.5 kHz is occupied by a calling station or a QSO, then QSY to 476.5"?=20
This would be a useful hint but not a law!

About QRSS/DFCW i think one can use a frequency which is close to the=20
carrier of  a NDB: First, there will be no CW station close to the=20
carrier. Second, the QRSS/DFCW signal is not affected by the presence of=20
the NBD carrier. Third, the radio operator in an aircraft listening to=20
the NDB will not hear the QRSS signal because it appears at very low=20
frequencies on the speaker, e.g. 40 Hz. So no one is negatively affected=20
and we can all live in peace :-)

Concentrating the digimodes on the upper part of the band is not bad i fi=
nd.

Lastly the active stations will define where the center or "dial"=20
frequency of which mode will be. All the active stations. BTW the few=20
grabbers and Twente WEB SDR are actually helping to coordinate active=20
stations in the first time of the band..

Let's enjoy it :-)

73, Stefan/DK7FC



Am 28.09.2012 09:36, schrieb Holger 'Geri' DK8KW DI2BO W1KW:
> Dear all,
>
> I agree with most who say that there is no deed at this point for any=20
> rigid plan, my only, very preliminary suggestion would be: let us keep=20
> the lower few kHz for regular CW, QRSS in the middle and digital modes=20
> above, say 477 kHz. While it may be necessary to agree on certain=20
> frequencies (such as 477 kHz "dial" for OPERA) I would keep the=20
> remaining allocations open, each local locations is different. Also,=20
> in the future with more activity I am sure we don't need any CW=20
> calling frequency as we will do random contacts, same as on every=20
> other ham band.
>
> Just my 2 =E2=82=AC-cent.
>
> Vy 73
>
> Geri, DK8KW & DI2BO
>
>
> On 28.09.2012, at 07:47, Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be=20
> <mailto:Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>> wrote:
>
>> Dear Klaus,
>>
>> in my opinion it is far too early for a rigid band plan.
>>
>> At this moment only few countries are active on 472-479kHz, in=20
>> 2013 things will change.
>>
>> Let's wait until then to decide
>>
>> a. if we really need a rigid band plan
>>
>> b. what it (eventually) will be
>>
>> 73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>> *Van:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
>> <mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>=20
>> [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
>> <mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>] namens KKorn42@aol.com=20
>> <mailto:KKorn42@aol.com> [KKorn42@aol.com <mailto:KKorn42@aol.com>]
>> *Verzonden:* vrijdag 28 september 2012 0:18
>> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org <mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or=
g>
>> *Onderwerp:* LF: 630m Band Plan
>>
>> Dear All
>> as a first proposal for discussion we present a "plan" that we coined=20
>> the "B31 Band Plan for 630m". The name derives from the DOK to which=20
>> all who shared ideas, belong.
>> Just to state it once more: it is a first basis and proposal and=20
>> those who have an interest in operation between 472kHz and 479kHz (up=20
>> to now the slot allocated by the BuNetzA to German hams) are invited=20
>> to agree, discuss or provide better ideas.
>> Several hams already provided specific proposals which were incorporat=
ed.
>> We deliberately did not detail too much, as we do not think, that all=20
>> can be fixed prior to actual demand.
>> Please see attached gif-file.
>> 1. A CW slot from 472kHz to 475kHz (=3D3kHz).
>> 2. Within that, a region for beacons (472,000kHz to 472,150kHz)=20
>> followed by a region for Slow CW (472,150kHz to 472,300kHz).
>> 3. For TA-CW DX traffic or other long-haul DX, a calling frequency=20
>> shall be established at 472,600kHz.
>> 4. For other CW traffic, another calling frequency (if the necessity=20
>> exists) shall be established in the upper region of the CW allocation=20
>> at 474,750kHz (474,500 occupied by "SA").
>> 5. The frequency 472,500kHz will not be allocated for special use (at=20
>> least for the time being), as a continuous carrier is audible 24/7=20
>> throughout DL.
>> 6. A slot for Digital Modes from 475,0kHz to 479,0 (=3D 4kHz).
>> 7. Today it is much too early to decide which digital modes will be=20
>> used on 630m. We propose to leave this open for the future. WSPR=20
>> (474,200kHz Dial USB), OPERA and ROS (477,000kHz DIAL USB) have=20
>> established themselves on the shown frequencies. Some other modes=20
>> that may be useful for MW but can not yet be used (e.g. JT65HF)=20
>> because they allow no suitable frequency selection.
>> 8. Digital Modes should not overlap each other (minor relocations may=20
>> be necessary).
>> 9. Whether or not the shown "protection zones" of e.g. +/- 50Hz=20
>> around active NDB frequencies are necessary or not, ist still being=20
>> discussed.
>> 10. No further stipulations will be given.
>> Walter DJ2LF, Roland DL3NDR, Klaus DJ6LB
>> NB (DJ6LB): Upon request I provide (via separate mail) a picture with=20
>> better resolution .

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
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</head>
<body bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000">
Hello all, <br>
<br>
Maybe we have to differnciate what people do understand as "band plan":<b=
r>
<br>
A typical band plan leads some OMs to complain about others like=C2=A0 "H=
ey
you have done QRSS on 47x.x kHz but this is the WSPR slot!" which is
nonsense for me. Here "band plan" is treated as a <u>law</u> where
people have to stick on. And this is what we do not need from my point
of view.<br>
<br>
However, if you understand "band plan" as a <u>useful hint for
newcomers</u> (RX- and TXwise) where it may be useful to listen or to
call=C2=A0 e.g. in CW or where to set the "dial" for WSPR decoding, then =
i
cannot find something bad on it. If we start to collect our experiences
why it is useful to use that QRG for that mode, then why not. But many
countries, experiences and <u>time</u> should form this plan, not only
the German amateurs, just because we are the first ones who actually
use the band. That means, probably the paln will form itselfe!<br>
<br>
Furthermore this 630m band is different to the typical HF bands and
even LF. We have different NDBs inside the band which cause QRM to us
and we can cause QRM to them. This should be avoided of course. If 630m
will become a world wide allocation in some time i can hardly imagine
that the world will spend significant interest to a "B31 band plan".
The EUs NDBs are not really interesting for Japan and maybe Japan or
other IARU contries will have other noise sources on other frequencies
in the band.<br>
<br>
I can absolutely not understand why the lowest 3 kHz should be reserved
for CW. Is there a real understandable reason for this? Just because
the lower parts of any HF band is reserved for CW? Please let me or us
know!<br>
>From my point of view, a real argument is: CW is (probably) the only
mode on 630m where the OM/YL does really listen into the noise. This is
mostly done with a 500Hz or maybe 250 Hz CW filter. Yes, there are 100
Hz software based CW filters but it is no fun to listen to CW through
such a filter... So it is important to have some 100 Hz of free
spectrum arround a CW calling frequency. Think about homebrewers who
use a homemade CW filter which has not the performance of a
proffessional HF TRX filter...<br>
For 472.5 kHz this is OK but the next and only really clear CW QRG is
476.5 kHz. So why not saying "472.5 kHz is the first calling frequency
where OMs can park their RX to listen for calling stations" and "If
472.5 kHz is occupied by a calling station or a QSO, then QSY to
476.5"? This would be a useful hint but not a law!<br>
<br>
About QRSS/DFCW i think one can use a frequency which is close to the
carrier of=C2=A0 a NDB: First, there will be no CW station close to the
carrier. Second, the QRSS/DFCW signal is not affected by the presence
of the NBD carrier. Third, the radio operator in an aircraft listening
to the NDB will not hear the QRSS signal because it appears at very low
frequencies on the speaker, e.g. 40 Hz. So no one is negatively
affected and we can all live in peace :-)<br>
<br>
Concentrating the digimodes on the upper part of the band is not bad i
find.<br>
<br>
Lastly the active stations will define where the center or "dial"
frequency of which mode will be. All the active stations. BTW the few
grabbers and Twente WEB SDR are actually helping to coordinate active
stations in the first time of the band..<br>
<br>
Let's enjoy it :-)<br>
<br>
73, Stefan/DK7FC<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 28.09.2012 09:36, schrieb Holger 'Geri' DK8KW DI2BO W1KW:
<blockquote cite=3D"mid:297E2C24-A986-4BE2-9A18-5382D87D7788@dk8kw.de"
 type=3D"cite">
  <div>Dear all,</div>
  <div><br>
  </div>
  <div>I agree with most who say that there is no deed at this point
for any rigid plan, my only, very preliminary suggestion would be: let
us keep the lower few kHz for regular CW, QRSS in the middle and
digital modes above, say 477 kHz. While it may be necessary to agree on
certain frequencies (such as 477 kHz "dial" for OPERA) I would keep the
remaining allocations open, each local locations is different. Also, in
the future with more activity I am sure we don't need any CW calling
frequency as we will do random contacts, same as on every other ham
band.</div>
  <div><br>
  </div>
  <div>Just my 2 =E2=82=AC-cent.</div>
  <div><br>
  </div>
  <div>Vy 73</div>
  <div><br>
  </div>
  <div>Geri, DK8KW &amp; DI2BO<br>
  <br>
  <span id=3D"signature"></span></div>
  <div><br>
On 28.09.2012, at 07:47, Rik Strobbe &lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
 href=3D"mailto:Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be">Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be<=
/a>&gt;
wrote:<br>
  <br>
  </div>
  <blockquote type=3D"cite">
    <div>
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF=
-8">
    <style id=3D"owaParaStyle">P {
	MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px
}
    </style>
    <div
 style=3D"direction: ltr; font-family: Tahoma; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-=
size: 8pt;">
    <p>Dear=C2=A0Klaus,</p>
    <p>=C2=A0</p>
    <p>in=C2=A0my=C2=A0opinion=C2=A0it is=C2=A0far=C2=A0too=C2=A0early=C2=
=A0for a=C2=A0rigid band plan.</p>
    <p>At=C2=A0this moment=C2=A0only few=C2=A0countries are=C2=A0active=C2=
=A0on 472-479kHz, in
2013=C2=A0things=C2=A0will change.</p>
    <p>Let's=C2=A0wait=C2=A0until=C2=A0then to decide</p>
    <p>a.=C2=A0if we=C2=A0really=C2=A0need a=C2=A0rigid band plan</p>
    <p>b.=C2=A0what=C2=A0it (eventually)=C2=A0will be</p>
    <p>=C2=A0</p>
    <p>73, Rik=C2=A0=C2=A0ON7YD - OR7T</p>
    <p>=C2=A0</p>
    <div
 style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 1=
6px;">
    <hr tabindex=3D"-1">
    <div style=3D"direction: ltr;" id=3D"divRpF963240"><font color=3D"#00=
0000"
 face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>Van:</b> <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
 href=3D"mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">owner-rsgb_lf_group@b=
lacksheep.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
 href=3D"mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">owner-rsgb_lf_group@b=
lacksheep.org</a>]
namens <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:KKorn42@aol.com">KKorn4=
2@aol.com</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:KKorn42@aol.com">KKorn42@aol.=
com</a>]<br>
    <b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 28 september 2012 0:18<br>
    <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
 href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or=
g</a><br>
    <b>Onderwerp:</b> LF: 630m Band Plan<br>
    </font><br>
    </div>
    <div><font id=3D"role_document" color=3D"#004080" face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"
 size=3D"3">
    <div>
    <div>Dear All<br>
as a first proposal for discussion we present a "plan" that we coined
the "B31 Band Plan for 630m". The name derives from the DOK to which
all who shared ideas, belong.<br>
Just to state it once more: it is a first basis and proposal and those
who have an interest in operation between 472kHz and 479kHz (up to now
the slot allocated by the BuNetzA to German hams) are invited to agree,
discuss or provide better ideas.<br>
Several hams already provided specific proposals which were
incorporated.<br>
We deliberately did not detail too much, as we do not think, that all
can be fixed prior to actual demand.</div>
    <div>=C2=A0</div>
    <div>Please see attached gif-file.</div>
    <div>=C2=A0</div>
    <div>1. A CW slot from 472kHz to 475kHz (=3D3kHz).<br>
2. Within that, a region for beacons (472,000kHz to 472,150kHz)
followed by a region for Slow CW (472,150kHz to 472,300kHz).<br>
3. For TA-CW DX traffic or other long-haul DX, a calling frequency
shall be established at 472,600kHz.<br>
4. For other CW traffic, another calling frequency (if the necessity
exists) shall be established in the upper region of the CW allocation
at 474,750kHz (474,500 occupied by "SA").<br>
5. The frequency 472,500kHz will not be allocated for special use (at
least for the time being), as a continuous carrier is audible 24/7
throughout DL.<br>
6. A slot for Digital Modes from 475,0kHz to 479,0 (=3D 4kHz).<br>
7. Today it is much too early to decide which digital modes will be
used on 630m. We propose to leave this open for the future. WSPR
(474,200kHz Dial USB), OPERA and ROS (477,000kHz DIAL USB) have
established themselves on the shown frequencies. Some other modes that
may be useful for MW but can not yet be used (e.g. JT65HF) because they
allow no suitable frequency selection.<br>
8. Digital Modes should not overlap each other (minor relocations may
be necessary).<br>
9. Whether or not the shown "protection zones" of e.g. +/- 50Hz around
active NDB frequencies are necessary or not, ist still being discussed.<b=
r>
10. No further stipulations will be given.</div>
    <div>=C2=A0</div>
    <div>Walter DJ2LF, Roland DL3NDR, Klaus DJ6LB</div>
    <div>=C2=A0</div>
    <div>NB (DJ6LB): Upon request I provide (via separate mail) a
picture with better resolution .
    </div>
    <div>=C2=A0</div>
    <div>=C2=A0</div>
    </div>
    </font></div>
    </div>
    </div>
    </div>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
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