Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-md04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 3035F38000093; Mon, 27 Aug 2012 10:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1T5zyE-0008VH-2w for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:07:14 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1T5zyD-0008V8-DC for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:07:13 +0100 Received: from smtpout2.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.42] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1T5zyB-0002XV-3o for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:07:12 +0100 Received: from AGB ([2.26.16.132]) by mwinf5d22 with ME id rq791j00Q2qxdiS03q79iT; Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:07:10 +0200 Message-ID: <751467BB8A984BD5A182F58C61CBE50B@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <06DDBDA2FE814440A956B5C33365FB75@AGB> <503B5C7A.8020106@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <003501cd8452$4ce82780$0501a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <37060B46D79F4AC69EEDBDA79B6B00CC@AGB> <004101cd845a$92615db0$0501a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> In-Reply-To: <004101cd845a$92615db0$0501a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:07:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Mal, At the end of the day its down to a contest of who can code the better DSP engine as with no DSP engine , there can not be any pixels' to join up , be that joined in logic or analogue using the mk-1-eb ! [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.42 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 539279ff7bff569d21f0b11e439ca5cc Subject: Re: LF: Re: OP missed decodes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B2_01CD8465.A155F1E0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY,MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d6058503b7f573845 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01CD8465.A155F1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mal,=20 At the end of the day its down to a contest of who can code = the better DSP engine as with no DSP engine , there can not be = any pixels' to join up , be that joined in logic or analogue = using the mk-1-eb ! If you look at the number of stations running last night , then , = the old , that's 'Joe' cannot be relied on any more ! G.. From: mal hamilton=20 Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 2:47 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: OP missed decodes Yes Graham fair logic, but with data modes it is ALL or NOTHING whereas = with a one state mode like QRSS there are alwas some characters visible = and the message just needs a bit of infill for an ID In the radio amateur context and especially on LF/mf we probably already = know the callsign and the gist of the info being sent. mal/g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Graham=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 1:08 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: OP missed decodes Interesting , is Op visible at -40 dB ? ,=20 But yes , it was possible to re hash a message if the ltrs/figs = shift had been missed , but the signal levels where many dB's = higher and once the change to multi tone was implemented , picalo = etc , then error rates dropped and link up-times extended =20 You are correct though , OP is a data mode , which by = definition is two state and therefore will have a pass/fail = point , the beacon is reporting 'path quality' by s/n at the Rx = ,=20 This applies to any beacon / data system , wspr has a decode = fail point , qrss has a decode fail point sure you can join = the dots up , but if you need to receive the data , then qrss = offers no advantage Q # =3D ? Q 5 =3D good copy , if you don't = see the 5 then what ? guess ?=20 G.. From: mal hamilton=20 Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 1:48 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: OP missed decodes Stefan es Co It is often the case when Data modes cannot be decoded they are = visible on the waterfall display. It is also a fact that RTTY can easily = be visually read on a waterfall display when it does not decode/print = because of qrn hits or qsb.=20 In the past RTTY fsk marks/spaces were read from undulator tape by a = competent operator who knew the Murray code. This method produced better = results than direct demodulation/printing The preferred method on LF/MF surely is QRSS, DFCW for reliability in = handling very weak signals then CW for the stronger signals and local = working. de mal/g3kev =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Stefan Sch=E4fer=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 11:39 AM Subject: LF: OP missed decodes G..,=20 Am 27.08.2012 13:18, schrieb Graham:=20 DK7FC UZ2HZ 2200m OPERA 1789 kms 23:05:38=20 =20 =20 =20 Did the program show that decode on your PC? On my PC the decode did = not appear! It would be a pity if decodes would be lost. I tried to = reach UZ2HZ but thought i wasn't successful. Maybe it was the same with = SM2DJK?=20 Maybe further stations got successful TA decodes but no one knows? = Another disadvantage compared to QRSS/DFCW.. 73, Stefan/DK7FC ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01CD8465.A155F1E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mal,
 
At the  end of the  day  its  down to  = a =20 contest  of  who  can  code the  better  = DSP =20 engine  as  with  no  DSP engine , there can  = not =20 be  any   pixels'  to  join up  , be = that =20 joined  in logic  or  analogue  using the  = mk-1-eb=20 !
 
If you look at the  number  of  stations  = running=20 last  night  , then , the  old  , that's =20 'Joe'   cannot  be  relied on  any more !
 
G..

From: mal hamilton
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 2:47 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: Re: OP missed decodes

Yes Graham fair logic, but with data modes it is = ALL or=20 NOTHING whereas with a one state mode like QRSS there are alwas = some=20 characters visible and the message just needs a bit of infill for an=20 ID
In the radio amateur context and especially on = LF/mf we=20 probably already know the callsign and the gist of the info being=20 sent.
mal/g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Graham
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 = 1:08=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: OP missed=20 decodes

Interesting  , is   Op  visible    = at =20 -40 dB ? ,
 
But  yes  , it was possible to  re hash a = message  if=20 the  ltrs/figs   shift had  been  = missed  , but=20 the  signal levels  where  many dB's   higher = and  once  the  change to  multi  tone =20 was  implemented , picalo   etc  ,=20 then  error  rates  dropped  and  = link =20 up-times  extended 
 
You are  correct though  , OP  is a  = data =20 mode  , which by  definition  is  two  = state =20 and therefore  will  have a  pass/fail  point , = the =20 beacon  is  reporting  'path  quality'   = by s/n=20 at the  Rx  ,
 
This applies to  any  beacon / data  system  = ,=20 wspr  has a  decode  fail  point  , = qrss =20 has  a  decode  fail  = point    sure=20 you can  join the  dots  up , but  if = you =20 need  to receive the  data , then  qrss  = offers =20 no  advantage   Q #  =3D ?   Q 5 =3D = good  copy=20 , if  you don't  see  the  5  then  what = ? guess=20 ?
 
G..

Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 1:48 PM
Subject: LF: Re: OP missed decodes

Stefan es Co
It is often the case when Data modes cannot be = decoded=20 they are visible on the waterfall display. It is also a fact that RTTY = can=20 easily be visually read on a waterfall display when it does not = decode/print=20 because of qrn hits or qsb.
In the past RTTY fsk marks/spaces were = read from=20 undulator tape by a competent operator who knew the Murray code. = This=20 method produced better results than direct = demodulation/printing
The preferred method on LF/MF surely is = QRSS,=20 DFCW for reliability in handling very weak signals then CW for = the=20 stronger signals and local working.
de mal/g3kev
  
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Stefan = Sch=E4fer=20
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 = 11:39=20 AM
Subject: LF: OP missed = decodes

G..,

Am 27.08.2012 13:18, schrieb Graham:=20
 
DK7FC UZ2HZ 2200m OPERA 1789 kms 23:05:38


Did = the=20 program show that decode on your PC? On my PC the decode did not = appear! It=20 would be a pity if decodes would be lost. I tried to reach UZ2HZ but = thought=20 i wasn't successful. Maybe it was the same with SM2DJK?
Maybe = further=20 stations got successful TA decodes but no one knows? Another = disadvantage=20 compared to QRSS/DFCW..

73,=20 Stefan/DK7FC
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