Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dc02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 3ECA3380000AA; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:12:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1SrC6M-00072d-1s for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 19:02:26 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1SrC6L-00072U-CD for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 19:02:25 +0100 Received: from nm14.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([77.238.189.67]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1SrC6J-00037t-Bi for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 19:02:24 +0100 Received: from [77.238.189.52] by nm14.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2012 18:02:21 -0000 Received: from [212.82.108.226] by tm5.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2012 18:02:21 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1003.bt.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2012 18:02:21 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 577940.2997.bm@omp1003.bt.mail.ird.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 44974 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2012 18:02:21 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=DKIM-Signature:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-Antivirus:X-Antivirus-Status; b=CYrhE75zkFA1KZCEdx9U/An2ARckq2Hshz/GNj4lCOC3yrxE6XT+TxZQ+89XfIAiJ/BDjmpUOOVwkef1VKU2s8H2oVvkXIjVd3g9dAK0YIDT22vp7Pd34wptwV0e0jlejofm8+szD9f2o4Hez3MSEPvViNsGOb00SIFDRdEdgm4= ; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=s1024; t=1342548141; bh=p/3iS+4aGjkljzrFEevKyj/7EgFHlmaKR7OC31P+bqc=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-Antivirus:X-Antivirus-Status; b=ciTrwrntQ6lhEsbmmHcdFJDAbUtWDhG3sMMU6FfQJ+Zd/0OQUKueL0WTAGw9hj5JZqaEZShNKbWqGHJclOBaUMsEyxm89Wui6BpmWdUlfgEXJWo6Gqrm1ASgc0rnABmGew0HE0qtroBckEqozs+Wdo8EYrytHHfMX/ECoeiNiD0= X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: o4sUIlIVM1mCIlUoI2QsNVx8utNhQcLkzOwUIslhcwszFcA t2r.xpBlCTzjJaA0WvZThQj5v2f4rP8vW4HvlCRt7ozJH3NR1LJ_8mWYpGLs 9Ow8kP0Y2oyRegEIh43jnPwu8gB_GYW6Wx0YJLLNkh7cTEYx97aP259c3YDz YHlMkrhq825T7Hb._XYtsHnUd2z.ZAiK3cI8jol7q_r.jXzBUXS.uLN4TynJ u4CJCfyhgNpO9z7V6eZ.PT4Gdr36GIbh.A3s3PSi667Pl4Vwt1gLamuqKwir AbCv477tPeIX7_C2HyHDkMtPwNxo9BfvNo5VqvZBW_PrHIao9KaCSR_zUtBh rn3PUtGDuu21lzV41LGxfMabO4EoM_herrDs7fH.nlCMtpIr7hMSjHmQnUlQ ZEDU6SQY32GyBcCtqv2Y- X-Yahoo-SMTP: fpz.2VeswBBs59bVshRPmMN51lcO2lgFRIvE4XTqE8dRwOxd70E- Received: from gnat (alan.melia@86.128.171.80 with login) by smtp830.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jul 2012 11:02:21 -0700 PDT Message-ID: From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <4F54B686CBDD4096901F642791F2E253@gnat> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 19:02:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 120717-0, 17/07/2012), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Roelof, yes if I could explain my position on this, it might help. I noted a relationship between high geomagnetic indexes and night-time DX signal levels on LF. The problem was that when the Kp recovered the path did not. I hypothesised hot electron injection from the CME into the ionosphere. However I could not believe the hot electrons could have such a long lifetime before recombination. This was up to 4 weeks in some cases. The effect is well reported in professional papers by Lauter and Jack Belrose (VE2CV) in the 1960s, but no mechanism was reported that I could find. [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [77.238.189.67 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines X-Scan-Signature: 9d01e9df836df8dd3868645661e1c1f7 Subject: LF: Re: Kyoto Dst question Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-15"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.6 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:450817568:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d238.2 ; domain : btinternet.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40825005ab200c14 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none Hi Roelof, yes if I could explain my position on this, it might help. I noted a relationship between high geomagnetic indexes and night-time DX signal levels on LF. The problem was that when the Kp recovered the path did not. I hypothesised hot electron injection from the CME into the ionosphere. However I could not believe the hot electrons could have such a long lifetime before recombination. This was up to 4 weeks in some cases. The effect is well reported in professional papers by Lauter and Jack Belrose (VE2CV) in the 1960s, but no mechanism was reported that I could find. Then a member of the VLF group Denis Gallagher who works for NASA, pointed me at a 1992 paper. This covered the population of the equatorial ring current from the CMEs and indicated that the ring current (the Van Allen belt) acted as a reservoir of hot electrons (and ions). These were able to enter the ionosphere at the sunrise edge where the magnetosphere is distorted as it rotated towards the Sun. The depletion of the ring current is a diffusion process, so the Dst index which is a measure of the total charge in the Ring Current recovers slowly, a bit like a capacitor discharge( exponentially). I have been able to correlate poor conditions with low Dst values. Normally 0 to -20nT in quiet condx, up to -400nT at a severe geomagnetic storm In general there is little excess night-time absorption when the Dst is above -20nT on the Colorado University (ACE) estimate. The Kyoto figures are not so reliable and give a value 10 to 20nT higher on average. Their figures are estimated from ground level magnetometers corrected for their distance from the equator. The instantaneous values can and are distorted by errors and local aberations. This is a fact that Kyoto appreciate and corrected values are only issued 6 months later....not a lot of use for LF propagation prediction.:-)) The Colorado figures are estimated from measurements of the Solar Wind by the ACE satellite, and have proved more reliable for propagation prediction.. So yes you can get a good idea of DX propagation by monitoring Dst. remember that a signal passes through the ionosphere every 2000km of ground range (approximately) so a long path suffers multiple bouts of attenuation during poor conditions. The effect on inter-EU paths is not so dramatic though it can see 12 to 15dB reductions in signals that are only one hop away. Sorry for the long "waffle" but I thought it might be worth airing again. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roelof Bakker" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:41 PM Subject: LF: Kyoto Dst question > Hello Alan (G3NYK), > > Looking at the Kyoto website and my NAVTEX log on 518 kHz, there is > clearly a strong correlation between Dst values around 0 and good T/A > reception. > > I wonder if a significant drop in the Dst value is followed by an > immediate change in propagation, or that there is some time lag? > > 73, > Roelof, pa0rdt >