Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dh06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id DB5A438000084; Tue, 12 Jun 2012 10:49:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1SeSNx-0000J8-S0 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 12 Jun 2012 15:47:57 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1SeSNw-0000Iz-Nc for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 12 Jun 2012 15:47:56 +0100 Received: from nm2-vm0.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([77.238.189.199]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1SeSNt-0007yz-58 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 12 Jun 2012 15:47:55 +0100 Received: from [77.238.189.56] by nm2.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jun 2012 14:47:50 -0000 Received: from [212.82.108.240] by tm9.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jun 2012 14:47:50 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1005.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jun 2012 14:47:50 -0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=yahoo.co.uk Result=Good and Known Domain X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 194083.26298.bm@omp1005.mail.ird.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 70257 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jun 2012 14:47:50 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1339512470; bh=mVgXEfEDj2n52c/OopYAtBuHaydDIdYCx4Kx99pJBtk=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=VOrE0A9swHtrv34aGJUfmsgUXxR+AnCY5RSkyUXW8+e1M6fxUJTHBi5SwzmSUxIWIQ8X9uOVMbIINs/D5Zrm2aKqUQJdHji4t+b2UxqEWPq6xvuk5rwbbWOwzp33U2FWf/kIvFKg2pIJvMDHJD4EBVdV8Fre6eYA3/GP3ZvxxOs= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=zjp1ZkcC4817UceKH12ArN7tFcmbPbElhySYQlLgnKYFr6166x0tSjyP9tnupmaRzikwsfzrs5Ymvtqcs/6FIFK8nM8HyXqhNZrvvPA7Le/jFW5rg/onrbizUV/khwRHrK9v0Rh78aU5s6fJAH3rVw8Uw6Xg2BbHD0LobpiR5TY=; X-YMail-OSG: BovKI8UVM1l33MX.Xx098TZ6NLirfQuK_uFg7PNIjq486N5 ClLkFCxcssFI.__vCsmNLubWGJzlixQQdqnKT2_ISESzry2foraYPRSEXiVB iONYtP0PKihiNlGOs3_tm6XBsNxx7HAKuKmNKrl7I68UkGgbNwVCwPJl7XHJ _4pFg5M_XXn200rax5EnCp.Mp0b.ouByUnOkHxBgnsVE65g1oZNgY.mSfLIO PWb7IbQ7su2sAtXdbgn82UkxM9znd86odDYRyCCYUrTJkUlz.F8KilM0KaoN QnnmPVGtAFlDidZBfZPDbkqvyHkjKRDx8Q8gFq1WceYYjx9ZfXnobZ7HUFGu y9LKBVu02aiVdRxZhqQeiOFkoBhSKO4Qm21.5Eg9fnqv_l9LfFHPl6wBa9em cT_z1ZL58hf1rZpnAYUth6Mu8qb4kZJL3VB6gC1DEuaOSqAV7IKfFCCS2_qN Bk36eN_Oef4qa9cb99lSOiD6rI_wMoCrSjvalTH9OLjkTcuhtj5Hp2RHf5kH fAVsQwM_5f3T8tJVKcw_nnUyWu9HGeVleIA459c1ZZsSHiUOuHtsBHDVYT3w DFbXqZcOj9JzV.rkhKRyUO6nJ5_gCxp5J70SPLxvKXaFAn_e.e0R5iVjG9Ms zgCeL4oPo4psDWx9eWHn6CY7PjGTZO_xctrrlYKVRw0XkDxF_MhD1SF7RRGc 2P38G.bwjJgNrxKz1QxtOsZlmyftXhgmgW6zaruwsltithTZjEiAi12LgTFp vMyk- Received: from [86.164.64.131] by web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 12 Jun 2012 15:47:49 BST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.118.349524 References: <1339438549.67345.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <85F124CBD59C48FEB97567F3B69B2AC1@lindavideo> <1339499711.77638.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1339512469.69790.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 15:47:49 +0100 (BST) From: M0FMT To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Graham and Warren My intention was to send this info I had used to good effect directly to Ken but forgot at the last minute and hit send. I love thermionic devices. The way my FL2000B lights up the shack wall is a thing of beauty. In fact I used to have that picture as wall paper on my Works Laptop which brought comment from the Engineering Director. The upshot being an interesting conversation in his office about what it was all about. I run a 1Watt but should be 5Watt 6cl6 TX on 500kc/s which you Graham have reported on via Opera. I need to follow my own advice and up the performance / efficiency........ Hmmmm 90% efficient valve pa (excluding the heater {[IxI]R} loss). But not "exploding" spark gaps......... :O) [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [77.238.189.199 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (m0fmt[at]yahoo.co.uk) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 FSL_FREEMAIL_2 FSL_FREEMAIL_2 0.0 FSL_FREEMAIL_1 FSL_FREEMAIL_1 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: f50ffa2d596e60b11ae43c4854906bce Subject: Re: LF: RE: Class E etc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-176341844-1014105217-1339512469=:69790" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 1:2:504389184:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 1 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m246.1 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d411a4fd756ef4923 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none ---176341844-1014105217-1339512469=:69790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Graham and Warren=0A=A0=0AMy intention was to send this info I had used = to good effect=A0directly to Ken but forgot at the last minute=A0and hit se= nd. I love thermionic devices. The way my FL2000B lights up the shack wall = is a thing of beauty. In fact I used to have that picture as=A0wall paper o= n my Works=A0Laptop which brought comment from the Engineering Director. Th= e upshot being an interesting conversation in his office=A0about what it wa= s all about. I run a 1Watt but should be 5Watt 6cl6 TX on 500kc/s which you= =A0Graham have reported on via Opera. I need to follow my own advice and up= the performance / efficiency........ Hmmmm 90% efficient valve pa (excludi= ng the heater=A0{[IxI]R} loss). But not "exploding" spark gaps......... :O)= =0A=0A73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX=0A=0A=0A________________________________= =0A From: Warren Ziegler =0ATo: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org =0ASent: Tuesday, 12 June 2012, 12:21=0ASubject: Re: LF: RE: Class E et= c=0A =0AYears ago, several ham friends of mine have made valve type=0Atran= smitters run in Class-D or E on 75 and 40 meters, 500kHz should be=0Ano pro= blem at all.=0A=0A73 Warren K2ORS=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 7:15 A= M, M0FMT wrote:=0A> Hi Ken=0A>=0A> I believe you can op= erate=A0some thermionic devices in higher classes than=0A> C=A0but they gen= erally lack the frequency response of a modern FET. I won't go=0A> into fig= ures but just think about it. The high efficiency output stage has=0A> to o= perate like a switch it is not actually an amplifier. The faster it=0A> cha= nges state from fully on with ultra low resistance to fully off=0A> (which= =A0means a device that will operate=A0well into the=A0VHF)=A0the higher the= =0A> efficiency. If you have a device that is barely rated to say a couple = of=0A> megs its not going to be much good (in terms of what we are talking= =0A> about)=A0at 500kc/s. Remember you are trying to get the magnetic field= in the=0A> inductor to rise and collapse at a very fast rate in-order to g= enerate a=0A> high electromagnetic field at the drive frequency. We are not= talking sine=0A> waves here as a scope on the drain will show. Although a = scope on the output=0A> side of the drain inductor will show quite a clean = looking sine wave. Try=0A> it.=0A>=0A> That chart at the end of that PDF fi= le is very clever and is the guide=A0I use=0A> to bring a PA into optimum p= erformance.=0A>=0A> What I was trying to say is that the math is all very w= ell but if you are=0A> trying to make a practical and=A0efficient CW TX for= LF then=A0there is enough=0A> empirical data from following the guide line= s lines shown on the sites I=0A> have posted=A0that will get you a good TX.= If you want a doctorate in=0A> theoretical physics to bamboozle you collea= gues then that will detract from=0A> the time it takes to build a very inte= resting high power, efficient=A0TX=0A> design well within anybodies capabil= ities.=A0The GW3UEP design being IMHO a=0A> very good (Scalable) example wi= th no=A0RadCom=A0style unobtainium in the=0A> components listing.=0A>=0A> 7= 3 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX=0A> From: Ken =0A> T= o: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=0A> Sent: Monday, 11 June 2012, 22:09=0A> S= ubject: LF: RE: Class E etc=0A>=0A> Hi Pete.=0A> About 40 years ago my inte= gration was quite good, liked doing 2nd order=0A> differential equations, p= artial integration and integration by parts, the=0A> one thing I had big pr= oblems with was 3 dimensional integration of a point=0A> in free space . = =A0=A0Looking at some of the sites my Class C MOSFET PA is=0A> probably mor= e like Class E by default. The reason I like valves is because=0A> they are= very forgiving devices unlike semiconductors, also the keep the=0A> shack = and the cat warm.=0A>=0A> 73s=0A>=0A> Ken=0A>=0A> M0KHW=0A>=0A> From: owner= - rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto: owner-=0A> rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep= .org ] On Behalf Of M0FMT=0A>=0A> Sent: 11 June 2012 19:16=0A> To: rsgb_lf_= group@blacksheep.org=0A> Subject: LF: Class E etc=0A>=0A>=0A> Hi Ken=0A>=0A= > Ha ha Stefan, how good is=A0your Integration Ken?=0A>=0A> Here are a coup= le of sites that should answer your questions. You need a=0A> good dummy lo= ad and a good oscilloscope. Setting the conditions for the=0A> amplifier is= to do with=A0 A/ the correct driver preferably using a FET drive=0A> chip = (like TC4422 non and TC4421 inverting) that will turn the FET fully=A0on=0A= > and fully off on each cycle. Very fast rise time with accurate=A0on off t= iming=0A> (mark / space). Ensuring the=A0max permitted gate voltage for the= FET=A0is not=0A> exceeded otherwise they pop, look out for transients, a d= iode clamp helps.=0A> B/ Setting the shunt capacitance and inductance=A0in = the drain=A0circuit can be=0A> done empirically See article below. Then fol= low it with=A0a=A0low pass filter,=0A> although the output wave will be sur= prisingly clean.=A0Calculating the values=0A> is difficult as you don't nec= essarily know all the starting=A0parameters and=0A> in any case=A0the resul= t is=A0going to wide of the mark. The site below will=0A> gives some starti= ng values. Best to use 'Scope measurements to set the=0A> output conditions= . You are looking for fast, very fast On / Off rise times.=0A> Gate drive a= nd understanding the drain circuit is the key.=0A> These amplifiers are cap= able of incredibly good efficiency well above a=0A> dodgy class C amp. This= means the heat dissipation from the FET is very low=0A> at high power=A0gi= ving cool heat-sinks!=0A>=0A> The GW3UEP (do a web search) single ended des= ign is capable good=0A> efficiency=A0and high power depending upon the FET = used and Drain supply=0A> voltage. I have modified one to run reliably at 1= 40watts and is capable of=0A> almost twice that into a dummy load with a he= at sink that is fairly cool.=0A> Adjusting L and C empirically using the 's= cope to get the correct drain wave=0A> shape for max efficiency is the way = to go. The article below shows you what=0A> you are looking for. I set my T= X up into a 50 Ohm dummy load adjusting L and=0A> C to get the correct drai= n wave shape on the 'scope then measuring the peak=0A> voltage across the D= ummy load.=A0I then transfer my=A0connector from the Dummy=0A> load to the = input of the tuned transformer in the antenna up-lead. I adjust=0A> the cou= pling link to give the same peak voltage=A0across the tuner link turns.=0A>= You are not looking for maximum peak just the sames as across the dummy lo= ad=0A> indicating a 50ohm match.=A0This is done by either=A0adding or reduc= ing=A0the=0A> number of turns (about two turns) along with bringing the the= transformer to=0A> resonance by measuring the peak=A0up-lead current, here= you are looking for=0A> the maximum peak.=0A>=0A> Oh yes and WIMA high vol= tage high value capacitors from Maplin work well.=0A>=0A> Read the articles= and search info on class E amplifiers.=0A>=0A>=0A> For some bed time readi= ng but ignor the math look at the Tuning Procedure=0A> and the pictures at = the end which tell it all really.....=0A> http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~culle= r/AIIT/papers/radio/Sokal%20AACD5-poweramps.pdf=0A>=0A> For design ideas=0A= > http://www.classeradio.com/=0A>=0A> For a good practical circuit for a si= ngle ended amp=A0that =A0is a scalable=0A> surefire design, no need to rein= vent the wheel.=0A> http://www.gw3uep.ukfsn.org/=0A>=0A> For antennas and a= ntenna feed methods a "look no where else site"=0A> http://www.strobbe.eu/o= n7yd/136ant/=0A>=0A> 73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A=0A=0A=0A-- = =0A73 Warren K2ORS=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WD2XGJ=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WD2XSH/23=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WE2XEB/2=0A= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WE2XGR/1 ---176341844-1014105217-1339512469=:69790 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Graham and Warre= n
 
My intention was to = send this info I had used to good effect directly to Ken but forgot at= the last minute and hit send. I love thermionic devices. The way my F= L2000B lights up the shack wall is a thing of beauty. In fact I used to hav= e that picture as wall paper on my Works Laptop which brought com= ment from the Engineering Director. The upshot being an interesting convers= ation in his office about what it was all about. I run a 1Watt but sho= uld be 5Watt 6cl6 TX on 500kc/s which you Graham have reported on via = Opera. I need to follow my own advice and up the performance / efficiency..= ...... Hmmmm 90% efficient valve pa (excluding the heater {[IxI]R} los= s). But not "exploding" spark gaps......... :O)
 
73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91U= X
From: Warren Ziegler <wd2xgj@gmail.com>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Tuesday, 12 June = 2012, 12:21
Subject: R= e: LF: RE: Class E etc

Years ago, several ham friend= s of mine have made valve type
transmitters run in Class-D or E on 75 an= d 40 meters, 500kHz should be
no problem at all.

73 Warren K2ORS



On T= ue, Jun 12, 2012 at 7:15 AM, M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
&= gt; Hi Ken
>
> I believe you can operate some thermionic d= evices in higher classes than
> C but they generally lack the fr= equency response of a modern FET. I won't go
> into figures but just = think about it. The high efficiency output stage has
> to operate lik= e a switch it is not actually an amplifier. The faster it
> changes s= tate from fully on with ultra low resistance to fully off
> (which&nb= sp;means a device that will operate well into the VHF) the h= igher the
> efficiency. If you have a device that is barely rated to = say a couple of
> megs its not going to be much good (in terms of wha= t we are talking
> about) at 500kc/s. Remember you are trying to get the magnetic field in the
> inductor to rise and collapse at = a very fast rate in-order to generate a
> high electromagnetic field = at the drive frequency. We are not talking sine
> waves here as a sco= pe on the drain will show. Although a scope on the output
> side of t= he drain inductor will show quite a clean looking sine wave. Try
> it= .
>
> That chart at the end of that PDF file is very clever and= is the guide I use
> to bring a PA into optimum performance.>
> What I was trying to say is that the math is all very well bu= t if you are
> trying to make a practical and efficient CW TX fo= r LF then there is enough
> empirical data from following the gu= ide lines lines shown on the sites I
> have posted that will get= you a good TX. If you want a doctorate in
> theoretical physics to b= amboozle you colleagues then that will detract from
> the time it takes to build a very interesting high power, efficient TX
>= design well within anybodies capabilities. The GW3UEP design being IM= HO a
> very good (Scalable) example with no RadCom style un= obtainium in the
> components listing.
>
> 73 es GL Pete = M0FMT IO91UX
> From: Ken <ken.h.wright@btintern= et.com>
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g
> Sent: Monday, 11 June 2012, 22:09
> Subject: LF: RE: Cl= ass E etc
>
> Hi Pete.
> About 40 years ago my integratio= n was quite good, liked doing 2nd order
> differential equations, par= tial integration and integration by parts, the
> one thing I had big = problems with was 3 dimensional integration of a point
> in free spac= e .   Looking at some of the sites my Class C MOSFET PA is
>= probably more like Class E by default. The reason I like valves is because=
> they are very forgiving devices unlike semiconductors, also the ke= ep the
> shack and the cat warm.
>
> 73s
>
> = Ken
>
> M0KHW
>
> From: owner- rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto: owner-
> rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ] On Behalf Of M0FMT
>
> S= ent: 11 June 2012 19:16
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blac= ksheep.org
> Subject: LF: Class E etc
>
>
> Hi = Ken
>
> Ha ha Stefan, how good is your Integration Ken?
>
> Here are a couple of sites that should answer your qu= estions. You need a
> good dummy load and a good oscilloscope. Settin= g the conditions for the
> amplifier is to do with  A/ the corre= ct driver preferably using a FET drive
> chip (like TC4422 non and TC= 4421 inverting) that will turn the FET fully on
> and fully off = on each cycle. Very fast rise time with accurate on off timing
>= (mark / space). Ensuring the max permitted gate voltage for the FET&n= bsp;is not
> exceeded otherwise they pop, look out for transients, a = diode clamp helps.
> B/ Setting the shunt capacitance and inductance&= nbsp;in the drain circuit can be
> done empirically See article = below. Then follow it with a low pass filter,
> although th= e output wave will be surprisingly clean. Calculating the values
&g= t; is difficult as you don't necessarily know all the starting parameters and
> in any case the result is g= oing to wide of the mark. The site below will
> gives some starting v= alues. Best to use 'Scope measurements to set the
> output conditions= . You are looking for fast, very fast On / Off rise times.
> Gate dri= ve and understanding the drain circuit is the key.
> These amplifiers= are capable of incredibly good efficiency well above a
> dodgy class= C amp. This means the heat dissipation from the FET is very low
> at= high power giving cool heat-sinks!
>
> The GW3UEP (do a w= eb search) single ended design is capable good
> efficiency and = high power depending upon the FET used and Drain supply
> voltage. I = have modified one to run reliably at 140watts and is capable of
> alm= ost twice that into a dummy load with a heat sink that is fairly cool.
&= gt; Adjusting L and C empirically using the 'scope to get the correct drain wave
> shape for max efficiency is the way to go. The = article below shows you what
> you are looking for. I set my TX up in= to a 50 Ohm dummy load adjusting L and
> C to get the correct drain w= ave shape on the 'scope then measuring the peak
> voltage across the = Dummy load. I then transfer my connector from the Dummy
> l= oad to the input of the tuned transformer in the antenna up-lead. I adjust<= br>> the coupling link to give the same peak voltage across the tun= er link turns.
> You are not looking for maximum peak just the sames = as across the dummy load
> indicating a 50ohm match. This is don= e by either adding or reducing the
> number of turns (about= two turns) along with bringing the the transformer to
> resonance by= measuring the peak up-lead current, here you are looking for
> = the maximum peak.
>
> Oh yes and WIMA high voltage high value capacitors from Maplin work well.
>
> Read the articles = and search info on class E amplifiers.
>
>
> For some bed= time reading but ignor the math look at the Tuning Procedure
> and t= he pictures at the end which tell it all really.....
> http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~culler/AIIT/papers/radio/= Sokal%20AACD5-poweramps.pdf
>
> For design ideas
> http://www.classera= dio.com/
>
> For a good practical circuit for a single ende= d amp that  is a scalable
> surefire design, no need to rei= nvent the wheel.
> http://www.gw3uep.ukfsn.org/
>
> For antennas and = antenna feed methods a "look no where else site"
> http://www.= strobbe.eu/on7yd/136ant/
>
> 73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX
= >
>
>



--
73 Warren K2ORS
   =             WD2XGJ
      &= nbsp;         WD2XSH/23
        =         WE2XEB/2
          =       WE2XGR/1



---176341844-1014105217-1339512469=:69790--