Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dg04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 3B6883800008B; Fri, 15 Jun 2012 13:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1SfaO1-0003fi-1W for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:32:41 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1SfaNz-0003fZ-VY for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:32:39 +0100 Received: from out1.ip05ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.241]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1SfaNx-0007Nq-1V for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:32:38 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AksFAMtw209cHnO5/2dsb2JhbAArGoJFgxKfHpBegQiCEwUBAQUIAQEDFgohCAIOBggCAwsBAQMFAgEDEQQBAQEJDAsKAgIUAQQYAgYMCggGDwQBCQECAgEBAQkCBIdcAw8HKaZCiTYDiViKVGIbgk+CFYESA41DkQWBVgWEfoJg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,418,1336345200"; d="scan'208,217";a="384755966" Received: from host-92-30-115-185.as13285.net (HELO xphd97xgq27nyf) ([92.30.115.185]) by out1.ip05ir2.opaltelecom.net with SMTP; 15 Jun 2012 18:32:35 +0100 Message-ID: <007601cd4b1c$d746a0b0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> From: "mal hamilton" To: Cc: "rsgb" References: <002901cd4b07$28b49530$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <1339775924.35989.YahooMailNeo@web87305.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 17:32:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: John The RSGB and their representives do not have the fire power to convince others in EU that their way is best. de MAL/VS6HI - Past President Hong Kong Amateur Radio Society. The same Office as the RSGB president. Maybe I would have handled things different. de G3KEV [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [62.24.128.241 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FSL_XM_419 Old OE version in X-Mailer only seen in 419 spam -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 FSL_UA FSL_UA 0.0 AXB_XMAILER_MIMEOLE_OL_024C2 AXB_XMAILER_MIMEOLE_OL_024C2 X-Scan-Signature: 4d9fc52ca5607401f230b1df8d5fa4f4 Subject: LF: Re: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: Band Planning for 472 Khz Band ? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0073_01CD4B1C.D70B1E50" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 1:2:464993280:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 8 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d410c4fdb7213383c X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01CD4B1C.D70B1E50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John The RSGB and their representives do not have the fire power to convince = others in EU that their way is best. de MAL/VS6HI - Past President Hong Kong Amateur Radio Society. The same = Office as the RSGB president.=20 Maybe I would have handled things different. de G3KEV=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Gould, G3WKL=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk=20 Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: Band Planning for 472 Khz Band ? =20 I'm busy on other matters this weekend and wasn't expecting to have to = get into this detail yet as the resolution for amateurs to have the band = doesn't strictly come into force until 1st Jan 2013. The issue with NDBs is complex as some have noted. Over several years = a group of us worked with classaxe data and other more official sources. = Our best list of active NDBs is collated at = http://www.rsgb-spectrumforum.org.uk/500khz/ndb.php, which was our = working data during the preparatory stages for WRC-12. It's quite = possible that there could be some changes to this data as it hasn't been = checked for several months. We failed to gain even European agreement on our preferred band 493 - = 505 kHz, and what we have is the common ground between the CITEL and = CEPT preference. At least we got something and at least for the UK and = a number of other countries it should work out as more bandwidth than we = have currently. As is often the case we have a compromise solution that takes into = account protection of NDB using frequency separation, distance and ERP. = Some countries have already excluded themselves in the footnote to the = allocation, and as the above website shows others will not be able to = allow operating across the whole band because of NDBs in neighbouring = countries. In the UK we are fortunate along with the USA and Canada and = a number of other countries that we should be allocated the whole band. = As some have said the NDBs are being phased out, but at CEPT level we = could not secure a timetable. Meanwhile, I would suggest that we don't = get too firm in our views at this stage of a band plan but me more = flexible as in the early days of 136 kHz. 73 John, G3WKL -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: graham787 To: rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk=20 Sent: Friday, 15 June 2012, 16:30 Subject: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: Band Planning for 472 Khz Band ? =20 Yes , But im sure we can engineer a way round it ..=20 Q what is the 'wording' of the data regulations ?=20 --- In rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk, "mal hamilton" = wrote: > > Graham > This particular piece of spectrum was NOT a good choice for radio = amateur use. Like Tracy said the majority of the NDB'S are audible in = the UK and some very loud during the dark hours.=20 > It is only really suitable for CW qso mode where the operator can = dive in/out of vacant slots at the time. > For Opera or other data modes it will be difficult where a SLOT = has to be specified because there are quite dramatic propagation changes = taking place especially in the dark hours and you could well end up on = top of a NDB or several.=20 > The same applies on 160 metres where band condx change all the = time, fortunately there are no NDB'S to contend with. > It is not surprising commercial operators did not see this part of = the spectrum as useful except all NDB'S QRT. > NDB'S are still a useful nav aid for the Aeronautical service es = others so I cannot see them switching off. > G3KEV >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: graham787=20 > To: rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk=20 > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 2:38 PM > Subject: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: Band Planning for 472 Khz Band ? >=20 >=20 >=20 > This is going to be a nightmare, more like a downhill slalom = course than a band allocation=20 >=20 > Has anyone a graphic of the band and beacon allocations what shows = where the gaps are ? >=20 > G.. >=20 > --- In rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk, "Mike Dennison" = wrote: > > > > Guard bands for all 27 listed NDBs would present a problem as = the MCW=20 > > receivers would be at least 2.5kHz wide. Fortunately, any=20 > > interference from amateurs is likely to be extremely local. Our = small=20 > > signal working is likely to suffer more QRM =3Dfrom=3D the NDBs = than to=20 > > them. > >=20 > > Mike, G3XDV > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > > > Twenty-seven NDBs have been logged in Europe between = 472-479kHz. > > > Twelve of those have been logged from the UK. > > > The NDB database on the Classaxe web site would provide = detailed > > > information on frequencies which should be avoided. It should = be borne > > > in mind that the NDBs use A2 mode with a mix of approx 400Hz = and > > > 1020Hz modulation, so there are a good number of specific = slots to be > > > wary of. > > >=20 > > > http://www.classaxe.com/dx/ndb/reu/ > > >=20 > > > Perhaps some consideration should be given to setting up some = form of > > > guard bands/frequencies in order to avoid any problems with = NDBs? > > >=20 > > > 73s Tracey G5VU > > > __._,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a new = topic=20 Messages in this topic (18)=20 Recent Activity: a.. New Members 4=20 Visit Your Group=20 Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest =E2=80=A2 Unsubscribe =E2=80=A2 = Terms of Use. =20 __,_._,___ ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01CD4B1C.D70B1E50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
John
The RSGB and their representives do not have the = fire=20 power to convince others in EU that their way is best.
de MAL/VS6HI - Past President Hong Kong = Amateur Radio=20 Society. The same Office as the RSGB president.
Maybe I would have handled things = different.
de G3KEV 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John Gould,=20 G3WKL
To: rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups= .co.uk=20
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 = 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [rsgb_lf_group] = Re: Band=20 Planning for 472 Khz Band ?

  =

I'm busy on other matters this weekend and wasn't expecting = to have=20 to get into this detail yet as the resolution for amateurs to have the = band=20 doesn't strictly come into force until 1st Jan 2013.

The issue with NDBs is complex as some have noted. =  Over=20 several years a group of us worked with classaxe data and other more = official=20 sources.  Our best list of active NDBs is collated = at http://www.r= sgb-spectrumforum.org.uk/500khz/ndb.php,=20 which was our working data during the preparatory stages for WRC-12.=20  It's quite possible that there could be some changes to this = data as it=20 hasn't been checked for several months.

We failed to gain even European agreement on our preferred = band 493=20 - 505 kHz, and what we have is the common ground between the CITEL and = CEPT=20 preference.  At least we got something and at least for the UK = and a=20 number of other countries it should work out as more bandwidth than we = have=20 currently.

As is often the case we have a compromise solution that = takes into=20 account protection of NDB using frequency separation, distance and = ERP. Some=20 countries have already excluded themselves in the footnote to the = allocation,=20 and as the above website shows others will not be able to allow = operating=20 across the whole band because of NDBs in neighbouring countries. =  In the=20 UK we are fortunate along with the USA and Canada and a number of = other=20 countries that we should be allocated the whole band. =  

As some have said the NDBs are being phased out, but at = CEPT level=20 we could not secure a timetable.  Meanwhile, I would suggest that = we=20 don't get too firm in our views at this stage of a band plan but me = more=20 flexible as in the early days of 136 kHz.
 
73 John, G3WKL
From: graham787=20 <g0nbd@hotmail.com>
To: = rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk=20
Sent: Friday, 15 = June=20 2012, 16:30
Subject:=20 [rsgb_lf_group] Re: Band Planning for 472 Khz Band = ?

 =20
Yes , But im sure we can engineer a way round it ..

Q = what is=20 the 'wording' of the data regulations ?

--- In rsgb_lf_group@yahoog= roups.co.uk,=20 "mal hamilton" <g3kevmal@...> wrote:
>
> = Graham
>=20 This particular piece of spectrum was NOT a good choice for radio = amateur=20 use. Like Tracy said the majority of the NDB'S are audible in the UK = and=20 some very loud during the dark hours.
> It is only really = suitable=20 for CW qso mode where the operator can dive in/out of vacant slots = at the=20 time.
> For Opera or other data modes it will be difficult = where a=20 SLOT has to be specified because there are quite dramatic = propagation=20 changes taking place especially in the dark hours and you could well = end up=20 on top of a NDB or several.
> The same applies on 160 metres = where=20 band condx change all the time, fortunately there are no NDB'S to = contend=20 with.
> It is not surprising commercial operators did not see = this=20 part of the spectrum as useful except all NDB'S QRT.
> NDB'S = are still=20 a useful nav aid for the Aeronautical service es others so I cannot = see them=20 switching off.
> G3KEV
>
> ----- Original Message = -----=20
> From: graham787
> To: rsgb_lf_group@yahoog= roups.co.uk=20
> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 2:38 PM
> Subject:=20 [rsgb_lf_group] Re: Band Planning for 472 Khz Band ?
> =
>=20
>
> This is going to be a nightmare, more like a = downhill=20 slalom course than a band allocation
>
> Has anyone a = graphic=20 of the band and beacon allocations what shows where the gaps are = ?
>=20
> G..
>
> --- In rsgb_lf_group@yahoog= roups.co.uk,=20 "Mike Dennison" <mike.dennison@> wrote:
> >
> = >=20 Guard bands for all 27 listed NDBs would present a problem as the = MCW=20
> > receivers would be at least 2.5kHz wide. Fortunately, = any=20
> > interference from amateurs is likely to be extremely = local.=20 Our small
> > signal working is likely to suffer more QRM = =3Dfrom=3D=20 the NDBs than to
> > them.
> >
> > = Mike,=20 G3XDV
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > =
> > > Twenty-seven=20 NDBs have been logged in Europe between 472-479kHz.
> > = > Twelve=20 of those have been logged from the UK.
> > > The NDB = database on=20 the Classaxe web site would provide detailed
> > > = information=20 on frequencies which should be avoided. It should be borne
> = > >=20 in mind that the NDBs use A2 mode with a mix of approx 400Hz = and
>=20 > > 1020Hz modulation, so there are a good number of specific = slots to=20 be
> > > wary of.
> > >
> > > = http://www.classaxe.com/dx/ndb/reu/
> > = >=20
> > > Perhaps some consideration should be given to = setting up=20 some form of
> > > guard bands/frequencies in order to = avoid any=20 problems with NDBs?
> > >
> > > 73s Tracey=20 G5VU
>=20 = >
>



__._,_.___
Reply=20 to sender | Rep= ly=20 to group | Reply=20 via web post | Start=20 a new topic
Messages=20 in this topic (18) =
Recent=20 Activity:=20 New=20 Members 4
Visit=20 Your Group
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Switch to: Text-Only,=20 Daily=20 Digest =E2=80=A2 Unsubscribe=20 =E2=80=A2 Terms of = Use
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