Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mk05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 764593811C3AB; Sat, 5 May 2012 19:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1SQoCG-0008EJ-Ql for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2012 00:15:28 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1SQoCG-0008EA-01 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2012 00:15:28 +0100 Received: from relay2.uni-heidelberg.de ([129.206.210.211]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1SQoCC-0007LC-6C for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2012 00:15:26 +0100 Received: from freitag.iup.uni-heidelberg.de (freitag.iup.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.29.204]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q45NFNBX014773 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 6 May 2012 01:15:23 +0200 Received: from [129.206.22.206] (pc206.iup.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.22.206]) by freitag.iup.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.11.20060308/8.11.2) with ESMTP id q45NFNi5016649 for ; Sun, 6 May 2012 01:15:23 +0200 Message-ID: <4FA5B44F.2050808@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 01:14:23 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Stefan_Sch=E4fer?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <1B5243A8767941DDAFA2BE89A6626A30@White> In-Reply-To: <1B5243A8767941DDAFA2BE89A6626A30@White> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Markus, What a genial report, i'm curious!! I just see your slow hell indoor transmission coming in here in Heidelberg: http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/DK7FC_LF_DX_Grabber.html Just excellent! A wonderful litz wire and high Q caps. Seems i'm a bit euphoric tonite :-) Don't stop transmitting! There is QSB on your signal due to the skywave component at night... [...] Content analysis details: (-2.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -2.3 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, medium trust [129.206.210.211 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: b99b9f5ebb2905dfac0746d3f825052c Subject: Re: LF: Indoor Transmit Loop Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090207000309030606040502" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:403608768:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d61894fa5b4c757af X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090207000309030606040502 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de id q45NFNBX014773 Hi Markus, What a genial report, i'm curious!! I just see your slow hell indoor=20 transmission coming in here in Heidelberg:=20 http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/DK7FC_LF_DX_Grabber.html Just excellent! A wonderful litz wire and high Q caps. Seems i'm a bit=20 euphoric tonite :-) Don't stop transmitting! There is QSB on your signal due to the skywave component at night... An indoor transmit loop. That should be an alternative for those living=20 in a high house with no garden. Should be nice on 455 kHz as well ;-) GL! Stefan/DK7FC Am 05.05.2012 23:50, schrieb Markus Vester: > Today I have experimented with an indoor transmit loop for 136 kHz. > First I attempted to measure the efficiency of a small test loop, 6=20 > turns and 66 cm diameter. It was made from a 12.1 meter piece of=20 > 729-strand Decca litz wire (same that Stefan used for his famous=20 > loading coil). Resonating with 23 nF styroflex gave a Q of=20 > 400, ie. 0.12 ohm series resistance. Theoretical radiation=20 > resistance (above ground) would be about 12 nanoohms, predicting=20 > an efficiency of about -70 dB. Then I tuned to 138.83 kHz and measured=20 > -61.0 dBm available receive power from DCF39. Assuming a fieldstrength=20 > of 3 mV/m here, an idealized lossless loop or Marconi should deliver=20 > +8.2 dBm. Thus efficiency of the test loop was -69.2 dB, in good=20 > agreement to theory. This shows that there is little attenuation of=20 > magnetic fields in the walls and the roof, despite the thin aluminium=20 > vapor barrier above me. > To improve efficiency and power capability, I then dismantled the=20 > little loop and reused the litz wire for a large single-turn loop.=20 > This is about 3.5 m wide wall-to wall, 2.5 m high floor to ceiling,=20 > oriented east-west for best signal towards Heidelberg. The loop was=20 > resonated with 83.3nF, made of 10 pieces 33nF / 2kV FKP-1 capacitors,=20 > in 2s-5p configuration. At 137 kHz, each capacitor is thermally=20 > limited to about 6 A rms (30 A total). As expected, both the=20 > inductance and the Q factor were lower (Q=3D72, 0.19 ohm=20 > loss). Presumably the extra 70 milliohms were contributed by=20 > absorption in steel reinforcement in the floor and walls. The=20 > radiation resistance of an 8.8 sqm loop should be about 0.23=20 > microohms, thus predicting 1.2 ppm (-59 dB) efficiency. > Before the on air tests, I had calibrated the DK7FC grabber=20 > receiver (180 km) using my normal LF Marconi, which has a known -30 dB=20 > efficiency. A 136.17 kHz carrier from a signal generator (13 dBm, 20=20 > =B5W radiated power) produced a level of about -89 dB in Stefan's=20 > Eu window. During the morning hours, noise was a low -105 dB in=20 > Heidelberg. > The big loop was then matched to 50 ohms using 16:1 turns on a ferrite=20 > ring (AL 4 uH). Fine tuning to 136.17 kHz was achieved by 0.44 uF in=20 > series to one of the cap branches, and by slightly deforming the loop=20 > geometry. Then I carefully applied power, expecting fireworks at any=20 > moment, or all sorts of unwanted EMC effects due to the magnetic=20 > nearfield. To my surprise, none of this happened. Going up to full 200=20 > watts silently produced 32 A in the loop, with no adverse effects on=20 > electonics or radios in the vicinity. Only the small ferrite=20 > transformer became hot after a short while. Recalculating core=20 > magnetisation (6V rms, 0.5 cm^2) gave 0.2 tesla peak which is way too=20 > much. This was easily mitigated by going to 32 turns primary and 2=20 > turns secondary. > For the on air-tests, I had inserted 100 kohm into the Marconi uplead=20 > to eliminate possible coupling and reradiation. Despite the higher=20 > afternoon QRN, signals from the loop were immediately received in=20 > Heidelberg, at -78 dB and 16 dB SNR. Thus radiated=20 > power was about 0.25 mW, and efficiency -59 dB, just as predicted. To=20 > double check, I temporarily reconnected the Marconi and transmitted a=20 > dash with full power. Due to slightly lower load impedance (40 ohms)=20 > the TX now produced 250 W (ie. 0.25 W EMRP). As expected, the signal=20 > in Heidelberg indeed went up by 30 dB. > During the following hour, SNR was actually good enough to marginally=20 > read a slow Hell transmission from the indoor antenna. More pics are at > http://df6nm.bplaced.net/LF/Indoor_Loop/ . > Well, so what is this good for? Transmit during a thunderstorm?=20 > Maybe there's not much one can do with this kind of power, but the=20 > experiment was certainly instructive, and good fun. > Best 73, > Markus (DF6NM) --------------090207000309030606040502 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Markus,

What a genial report, i'm curious!! I just see your slow hell indoor transmission coming in here in Heidelberg: http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/DK7FC_LF_DX_Grabber.html

Just excellent! A wonderful litz wire and high Q caps. Seems i'm a bit euphoric tonite :-) Don't stop transmitting!
There is QSB on your signal due to the skywave component at night...

An indoor transmit loop. That should be an alternative for those living in a high house with no garden. Should be nice on 455 kHz as well ;-)

GL!

Stefan/DK7FC


Am 05.05.2012 23:50, schrieb Markus Vester:
Today I have experimented with an indoor transmit loop for 136 kHz.
 
First I attempted to measure the efficiency of a small test loop, 6 turns and 66 cm diameter. It was made from a 12.1 meter piece of 729-strand Decca litz wire (same that Stefan used for his famous loading coil). Resonating with 23 nF styroflex gave a Q of 400, ie. 0.12 ohm series resistance. Theoretical radiation resistance (above ground) would be about 12 nanoohms, predicting an efficiency of about -70 dB. Then I tuned to 138.83 kHz and measured -61.0 dBm available receive power from DCF39. Assuming a fieldstrength of 3 mV/m here, an idealized lossless loop or Marconi should deliver +8.2 dBm. Thus efficiency of the test loop was -69.2 dB, in good agreement to theory. This shows that there is little attenuation of magnetic fields in the walls and the roof, despite the thin aluminium vapor barrier above me.
 
To improve efficiency and power capability, I then dismantled the little loop and reused the litz wire for a large single-turn loop. This is about 3.5 m wide wall-to wall, 2.5 m high floor to ceiling, oriented east-west for best signal towards Heidelberg. The loop was resonated with 83.3nF, made of 10 pieces 33nF / 2kV FKP-1 capacitors, in 2s-5p configuration. At 137 kHz, each capacitor is thermally limited to about 6 A rms (30 A total). As expected, both the inductance and the Q factor were lower (Q=72, 0.19 ohm loss). Presumably the extra 70 milliohms were contributed by absorption in steel reinforcement in the floor and walls. The radiation resistance of an 8.8 sqm loop should be about 0.23 microohms, thus predicting 1.2 ppm (-59 dB) efficiency.
 
Before the on air tests, I had calibrated the DK7FC grabber receiver (180 km) using my normal LF Marconi, which has a known -30 dB efficiency. A 136.17 kHz carrier from a signal generator (13 dBm, 20 µW radiated power) produced a level of about -89 dB in Stefan's Eu window. During the morning hours, noise was a low -105 dB in Heidelberg.
 
The big loop was then matched to 50 ohms using 16:1 turns on a ferrite ring (AL 4 uH). Fine tuning to 136.17 kHz was achieved by 0.44 uF in series to one of the cap branches, and by slightly deforming the loop geometry. Then I carefully applied power, expecting fireworks at any moment, or all sorts of unwanted EMC effects due to the magnetic nearfield. To my surprise, none of this happened. Going up to full 200 watts silently produced 32 A in the loop, with no adverse effects on electonics or radios in the vicinity. Only the small ferrite transformer became hot after a short while. Recalculating core magnetisation (6V rms, 0.5 cm^2) gave 0.2 tesla peak which is way too much. This was easily mitigated by going to 32 turns primary and 2 turns secondary.
 
For the on air-tests, I had inserted 100 kohm into the Marconi uplead to eliminate possible coupling and reradiation. Despite the higher afternoon QRN, signals from the loop were immediately received in Heidelberg, at -78 dB and 16 dB SNR. Thus radiated power was about 0.25 mW, and efficiency -59 dB, just as predicted. To double check, I temporarily reconnected the Marconi and transmitted a dash with full power. Due to slightly lower load impedance (40 ohms) the TX now produced 250 W (ie. 0.25 W EMRP). As expected, the signal in Heidelberg indeed went up by 30 dB.
 
During the following hour, SNR was actually good enough to marginally read a slow Hell transmission from the indoor antenna. More pics are at
 
Well, so what is this good for? Transmit during a thunderstorm? Maybe there's not much one can do with this kind of power, but the experiment was certainly instructive, and good fun.
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 
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