Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-da05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 75565380000D1; Sat, 11 Feb 2012 09:13:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1RwDgf-0007jT-EN for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:12:25 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1RwDge-0007jK-Hl for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:12:24 +0000 Received: from smtpout3.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.59] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1RwDgc-0001Co-N0 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:12:24 +0000 Received: from AGB ([2.26.9.108]) by mwinf5d43 with ME id YeCC1i00D2KrNAA03eCCqE; Sat, 11 Feb 2012 15:12:17 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Graham" To: References: <4F365BEA.70302@talktalk.net> In-Reply-To: <4F365BEA.70302@talktalk.net> Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:12:12 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 120211-0, 11/02/2012), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=0.234 Subject: Re: LF: WE2XGR/6 OP8 & OP4 tests Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01CCE8C7.26311AB0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:402658080:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d404d4f3677906b7c X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01CCE8C7.26311AB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable R Ed, There should not be any Doppler problems as Op only has a = single tone and is not trying to determine frequency shift, more = likely to be loss of data past the 50/55% ? Its not the decode level that I am looking for , its the number = of decodes at range in a given time period , the maximum data = rate is limited by the CW keying speed of a TX, what's the = minimum 'dot' width that can be produced , from say 50% power = points ? Look out for the 2/4 500 test from the usa , that should give = an indication of the cycle time / s/n play off =20 73 -G.=20 From: qrss=20 Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 12:15 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: WE2XGR/6 OP8 & OP4 tests Hi Graham I am far from anti, would just like to see some proof with my own eyes, = with an hour between mode changes propagation can of course be totally = different. >From my example below within 1 minute of each other OP8 will look as if = it is doing better. =20 17:32 500 G3ZJO de G4MDH Op4 104 km -26 dB in Wootton Bassett with = 0.0002w + 5m inv.L - rx=20 17:27 500 G3ZJO de G4MDH Op8 104 km -33 dB in Wootton Bassett with = 0.0002w + 5m inv.L - rx=20 Trouble is I was testing on 50MHz last night and saw the same results = OP2 failed to decode more often than OP1. Here are the first 6 transmissions when there was little Aircraft = activity. 21:50 50700 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op1 127 km -10 dB in Essex with 0.5w + = 4element at 5.5m agl 21:49 50700 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op1 127 km -12 dB in Essex with 0.5w + = 4element at 5.5m agl 21:47 50700 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op1 127 km -13 dB in Essex with 0.5w + = 4element at 5.5m agl 21:46 50700 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op2 127 km -17 dB in Essex with 0.5w + = 4element at 5.5m agl 21:44 50700 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op2 127 km -16 dB in Essex with 0.5w + = 4element at 5.5m agl 21:40 50700 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op2 127 km -25 dB in Essex with 0.5w + = 4element at 5.5m agl When there is the chance of Aircraft enhancement OPERA seems pretty = robust Doppler causing only rare problems. Most often, with power = levels set for no direct path decodes, both OP1 and OP2 'hop on to Easy = Jet for a ride'. 22:32 50700 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op1 127 km -8 dB in Essex with 0.5w + = 4element at 5.5m agl 22:31 50700 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op2 127 km -6 dB in Essex with 0.5w + = 4element at 5.5m agl We still have to try both stations beaming to Flight Path Hot Spots to = try parallel Doppler when there in no chance of direct decode but I = think OPERA will do it. Yes some of this mail is O/T for LF. Eddie G3ZJO On 11/02/2012 00:29, Graham wrote:=20 Interesting post in the yahoo group May be a long haul OP2 test would give a useful comparison , = other than ground wave , I have not seen , the longer OP16 produce = reliable decodes on 500 , OP8 may be the better choice , but = 2/4 have not been tested ? G. WE2XGR/6 [aka WE6XGR-OPERA mode call sign] I ran OP8 for an hour and = went to OP4 for an hour and back to OP8 for final hour. OP8 certainly = shows promise as a good compromise speed. On OP8 many decodes were all = the way down to -35 [G0KTN]. Best I got on OP4 tonite was a -30. All = transmitting tonight was at 200 W and that is 20 W ERP with my antenna. > Thanks to the following for all the decodes; >=20 > G4WGT > G0KTN [-35 USING OP8] > WU9Q > WW2R > AC4IU > W3NF > N4FRE > K3SIW > N6RY > VE4XC ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01CCE8C7.26311AB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
R  Ed,
 
There  should  not  be  any  Doppler=20 problems  as  Op only  has  a single  tone = and =20 is  not  trying  to  determine  frequency  = shift,=20 more likely to  be  loss  of data  past  = the =20 50/55% ?
 
Its not the  decode  level  that  I am =20 looking  for  , its  the  number  of =20 decodes  at range in a given  time  period = ,  the =20 maximum  data rate  is limited  by  the  CW=20  keying  speed  of  a  TX, what's  = the =20 minimum  'dot'   width  that  can be  = produced ,=20 from  say  50%  power  points  ?
 
Look  out  for the  2/4 500  test  from = the =20 usa  , that  should  give  an  indication  = of=20 the   cycle time /  s/n  play  off 
 
73 -G.

From: qrss
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 12:15 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: WE2XGR/6 OP8 & OP4 = tests

Hi Graham

I am far from anti, would just like to = see some=20 proof with my own eyes, with an hour between mode changes propagation = can of=20 course be totally different.

From my example below within 1 = minute of=20 each other OP8 will look as if it is doing better.
 =20
17:32    500 G3ZJO de G4MDH Op4 104 km -26 dB in = Wootton=20 Bassett with 0.0002w + 5m inv.L - rx
17:27    500 = G3ZJO de=20 G4MDH Op8 104 km -33 dB in Wootton Bassett with 0.0002w + 5m inv.L - rx=20

Trouble is I was testing on 50MHz last night and saw the same = results=20 OP2 failed to decode more often than OP1.
Here are the first 6 = transmissions=20 when there was little Aircraft activity.
21:50 50700 G3ZJO de G6AVK = Op1 127=20 km -10 dB in Essex with 0.5w + 4element at 5.5m agl
21:49 50700 G3ZJO = de=20 G6AVK Op1 127 km -12 dB in Essex with 0.5w + 4element at 5.5m = agl
21:47 50700=20 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op1 127 km -13 dB in Essex with 0.5w + 4element at 5.5m=20 agl
21:46 50700 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op2 127 km -17 dB in Essex with 0.5w + = 4element at 5.5m agl
21:44 50700 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op2 127 km -16 dB in = Essex=20 with 0.5w + 4element at 5.5m agl
21:40 50700 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op2 127 = km -25 dB=20 in Essex with 0.5w + 4element at 5.5m agl

When there is the = chance of=20 Aircraft enhancement  OPERA seems pretty robust  Doppler = causing only=20 rare problems. Most often, with  power levels set for no direct = path=20 decodes, both OP1 and OP2 'hop on to Easy Jet for a ride'.

22:32 = 50700=20 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op1 127 km -8 dB in Essex with 0.5w + 4element at 5.5m=20 agl
22:31 50700 G3ZJO de G6AVK Op2 127 km -6 dB in Essex with 0.5w + = 4element=20 at 5.5m agl

We still have to try both stations beaming to Flight = Path Hot=20 Spots to try parallel Doppler when there in no chance of direct decode = but I=20 think OPERA will do it.

Yes some of this mail is O/T for = LF.

Eddie=20 G3ZJO

On 11/02/2012 00:29, Graham wrote:=20
Interesting post  in the  yahoo  group
 
May be a  long  haul  OP2   test =20 would  give a  useful comparison , other  than = ground =20 wave , I have not  seen , the  longer  OP16=20  produce  reliable  decodes on  500 , OP8  = may =20 be  the  better  choice , but  2/4 have not =20 been  tested  ?
 
G.
 
WE2XGR/6 [aka WE6XGR-OPERA mode call sign] I ran OP8 for an hour = and went=20 to OP4 for an hour and back to OP8 for final hour. OP8 certainly shows = promise=20 as a good compromise speed. On OP8 many decodes were all the way down = to -35=20 [G0KTN]. Best I got on OP4 tonite was a -30. All transmitting tonight = was at=20 200 W and that is 20 W ERP with my antenna.
> Thanks to the = following=20 for all the decodes;
>
> G4WGT
> G0KTN [-35 USING=20 OP8]
> WU9Q
> WW2R
> AC4IU
> W3NF
>=20 N4FRE
> K3SIW
> N6RY
>=20 VE4XC

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