Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id C312A3800008A; Thu, 2 Feb 2012 15:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Rt2tH-0001EO-UO for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 20:04:19 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Rt2tD-0001EF-Jx for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 20:04:15 +0000 Received: from smtpout1.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.29] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Rt2tA-0006sN-TS for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 20:04:15 +0000 Received: from AGB ([2.26.21.175]) by mwinf5d07 with ME id V8461i00C3mf3FE03846Qx; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:04:07 +0100 Message-ID: <265AD630F42E4F7BBB04C1DDE1BF523E@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <002201cce18f$b4c42c70$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> In-Reply-To: <002201cce18f$b4c42c70$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 20:04:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 120202-1, 02/02/2012), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=0.234 Subject: Re: LF: OPERA QSO Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_011E_01CCE1E5.D1735A20" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:405567744:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60154f2af2c24f28 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_011E_01CCE1E5.D1735A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok Mal Well a data mode was the original idea , actually what has = evolved (so far) was never really envisaged , but during testing , = the s/n level of the decodes started to drop and we had a ring = side seat at a race to the noise floor ....=20 I did try some time ago to get some interest in adding , arq = function to the popular data modes , after the original set of = simple 'shoot out' data tests , the original mfsk did give the = best results , but at wide b/w , but never managed to gain any = ground , other than with the email handling facility of fldigi , = I think Jim was the first to receive a radio email from me on 500 = using this method. =20 The problem with 'All' the soundcard based data modes is , you = need to be able to transmit, either translated frequency shift = and some times amplitude variation , which drops most home made = kit out of the race , ROS -MF modes still require frequency = translation from audio to Rf , but runs round the -22/-27 dB = level and can pass via class e/d amps=20 This is where the Op idea came from , could we use a cw tx. to = send serial data , The data coding seems to be a set length of 6 chr's for Op , = the original concept , and assumedly still is , that the Op = system would have modes running , a robust mode to provide = the link /lock and call sign and a lesser mode to act as the data = transfer .... this is similar to the ROS mode , where the initial = lock sequence is more robust than the fasted data transfer . I = think we have the lock phase on test at the moment ... FEC is provided , by way of the data spreading , not in the = classic interleaving / overlaying stepped in time , but as result = of the numeric spreading , which allow 's for a random loss of = round 55% of the data to occur , whilst still decoding.=20 The most simply way to visualise the process is a jig-saw , = where all the pieces of the puzzle are gathered together , then = assembled to re-create the original data , that why there is no = Rx progress indicator , nothing is really known until the final = decode phase is entered.=20 Thanks' to all , makes all the time Gary and I sat during = testing, waiting for a ding , and yes the song is quite right , = 'it don't mean a thing if it don't go ding' worth while ...=20 G..=20 From: mal hamilton=20 Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 9:47 AM To: rsgb=20 Subject: LF: OPERA QSO Graham Opera seems popular, are there any plans ahead for a basic QSO mode = instead of Beacon only. At present on MF/LF it has popularity in its favour over the other data = modes.=20 Instead of FEC how about the amtor approach where the transmission = triggers a RX stn who responds and a QSO begins. The exchange need only = be a few key words.=20 How about modifying Amtor or Pactor for MF use.=20 mal/g3kev ------=_NextPart_000_011E_01CCE1E5.D1735A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok  Mal
 
Well  a data  mode was the  original  idea ,=20 actually  what  has  evolved  (so  far)  = was=20 never  really  envisaged , but  during testing , = the =20 s/n  level  of the  decodes  started  to  = drop and=20 we had a  ring side seat  at a race to  the noise  = floor=20 ....
 
I did try  some time ago  to  get  some =20 interest  in adding , arq  function to the  popular  = data  modes , after the  original  set of  = simple =20 'shoot out'   data  tests ,  the  = original  mfsk=20 did give the  best  results , but  at  wide b/w , = but=20 never  managed to  gain any  ground , other than  = with=20 the  email  handling  facility  = of  fldigi =20 ,  I think Jim was the  first  to  receive a =20 radio  email from  me  on 500  using  this = method. 
 
The  problem  with  'All'  the  = soundcard =20 based  data  modes is , you  need  to  be  = able=20 to  transmit, either  translated frequency  shift  = and =20 some times   amplitude  variation , which  drops = most =20 home made kit   out of the race , ROS -MF  modes =20 still  require  frequency  translation  from =20 audio  to  Rf  , but  runs  round  = the =20 -22/-27 dB level  and can pass  via  class  = e/d  amps=20
 
This is where  the  Op  idea  came from , could = we use=20 a  cw  tx. to  send serial  data ,
 
The  data  coding  seems  to  be  = a =20 set  length of  6  chr's  for  = Op ,=20 the  original  concept  , and  assumedly  = still =20 is , that  the  Op system would  have   =20 modes  running   , a  robust    = mode =20 to  provide the  link /lock and  call sign  and = a=20 lesser  mode  to  act as the  data transfer = .... =20 this  is  similar to the  ROS  mode , where  = the =20 initial  lock  sequence  is  more  robust  = than  the  fasted  data  transfer . I think  we = have=20 the lock  phase  on test  at the  moment  = ...
 
FEC is provided  , by  way  of the  data =20 spreading  , not  in the  classic  = interleaving /=20 overlaying stepped  in time  , but  as result  of = the =20 numeric  spreading  , which  allow 's  for = a =20 random  loss  of  round 55%  of the  data  = to  occur , whilst  still  decoding.
 
The  most  simply  way to  visualise the =20 process  is a  jig-saw  , where  all the  = pieces of=20 the  puzzle  are  gathered together , then assembled=20 to   re-create  the  original  data  , = that =20 why there  is no  Rx  progress  indicator , = nothing =20 is  really  known  until  the final   = decode =20 phase  is entered.
 
Thanks' to all  , makes  all  the  time =20 Gary  and  I sat during  testing,  waiting  for = a =20 ding  , and yes the  song is  quite  right  , = 'it don't=20 mean a  thing if it don't  go  ding'  worth while = ...
 
G..

From: mal hamilton
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 9:47 AM
To: rsgb
Subject: LF: OPERA QSO

Graham
Opera seems popular,  are there any plans = ahead for a=20 basic QSO mode instead of Beacon only.
At present on MF/LF it has popularity in = its favour=20 over the other data modes.
Instead of FEC how about the amtor approach = where the=20 transmission triggers a RX stn who responds and a QSO begins.=20 The exchange need only be a few key words.
How about modifying Amtor or Pactor for MF use.=20
mal/g3kev
 
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