Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-ma04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id F394538000099; Tue, 28 Feb 2012 05:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1S2JvS-0003M1-Im for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:04:54 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1S2JvR-0003Ls-PH for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:04:53 +0000 Received: from nm7-vm0.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([77.238.189.222]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1S2JvR-0001SF-Es for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:04:53 +0000 Received: from [77.238.189.233] by nm7.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Feb 2012 10:04:47 -0000 Received: from [212.82.108.250] by tm14.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Feb 2012 10:04:47 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1015.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Feb 2012 10:04:47 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 624231.9200.bm@omp1015.mail.ird.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 17084 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Feb 2012 10:04:47 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1330423487; bh=t/OszZJx7EVY2DcwVDml71tBV4Kiz6Or3adZE2Q5ZTM=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=vyZ6Dtkk0Otv31y6r2aR16WI5BuzmY4cqHK/VWDC1IlQS+33n3XXYfWBF0VO7xJZSbz0T9o6qyBiy97XynUNFoMu2wrjlhMtRSf84RmVJk3COsAKiH/DKrivUHXLAQMD0EbTUJ5zaW3EVoioxQAA9k5NHy5KQcQBAmMDlzv99Gg= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=G4EbhJ+/dWlfjs1zSJ4y0/xMA7ovK7F/ar6WOn3SNbTK3c0VyxBlkVmbFvtcu2H0MB4aQYFY7tA0hMW+VycjZXMgGkgz7FWoPxK9269yDW6TyqzsNuY5mXUbAXUetju0H+xLyIoB2+LwUbfA4MrOYKUz0+WNIyKIqGtLJQXrKf0=; X-YMail-OSG: MAUgQ28VM1nUplctsAH1CCLco0OO6BXTSTBlsvsZHxlZqa5 hqaYAe0tZzdcp903Dyi4mhDfaf3BOtjFsgrisjpdIjOpgxs2vezeXGxaQ1a7 njwXL5kt_OOUFPeA57ylG.8nMq5ktlJ3brlxqeYFXr8uY9tkjCz5s.kvc5m. BtzQPIE8M9NHpSVTu5PvsDxhw7K6K_UpUOaPqnuxgBoxiyCRWiOqKBSzPAga mlP5BIvsLpaaM7u_h6pWr4MXub66_rOdpTbFg8XXRexuOWgvuWejXdAXH553 Pq2S3Ng4NbiOdTIRjtq1QckSZ.JXDpjZ3uVdoKGk4UB2OUC2Cwt8YI.XpRt2 henhAYU6L.KjiOdD9PGbPDgtJO4D1PLCrOnk83u9.hO2lH0EXg9dk1zBwSyz wRHCTSjPSm2cRarVhISmFuIp4PYJCbaXqcadM8e_HMWtvJh8VcOxMPRxswx8 t Received: from [86.164.144.252] by web171610.mail.ir2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:04:47 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.116.338427 References: <74845C11BC3444D79B63A207E428BDE0@lindavideo> <1205576556-1330352309-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-124445598-@b27.c11.bise7.blackberry> <005701ccf561$cd9d4250$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <098856018E3A46AB96BA9F9FC6C8FFCD@JimPC> Message-ID: <1330423487.82729.YahooMailNeo@web171610.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:04:47 +0000 (GMT) From: M0FMT To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" In-Reply-To: <098856018E3A46AB96BA9F9FC6C8FFCD@JimPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1867331490-1688617407-1330423487=:82729" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_FONT_BIG, HTML_MESSAGE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:516096224:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d283.2 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d600c4f4ca7164f0d X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none ---1867331490-1688617407-1330423487=:82729 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=0A=0AHi Jim and group=0A=A0=0ANon flyer's seem to think an air=A0pilot = just uses instruments to the exclusion of all other senses. I have done fli= ght training on light aircraft, gliders=A0and mixed with professional flyer= 's in previous jobs.=A0They are a very conservative bunch and very sceptica= l about what their instruments tell them. Mark one eye ball being the best = instrument. When learning there is a strong tendency to concentrate on the = instrument panel but the call from the instructor is always for=A0"eyes out= of the cabin". It is not the case that an air pilot will follow to his dea= th an erroneous signal. All instruments=A0give more than one clue as to wha= t is going on. Radio instruments are used with a great deal of circumspecti= on and=A0will be crossed checked against visual=A0sightings, dead reckoning= and=A0ground radar assistance. It is never the case that just one instrume= nt will be relied upon. At altitude many signals can be heard from great di= stances and propagation conditions too can enhance signals to levels so that they can block local signals. Ai= r pilots are fully aware of this and also they are aware of secondary users= on "Their" radio channels (viz; CIT is right in the middle of the MW BC ba= nd). There are a lot of flying "ears" listening to all the beacons as part = of their daily work as a pilot and anything new is soon passed on by air to= air contact and ground air traffic. The NOTAM system will inform all=A0(an= d I mean all) air pilots of the changes and explain what is going on.=0AIf = you have not done flight training it is worth it just to learn what a scept= ical bunch flyer's are when it comes to instruments. The older the pilot th= e more sceptical they are because they have seen so much and been let down = by instrumentation. =0ASo I can not support the notion that we will see ter= rible accidents occurring because Mal is=A0rattling along at 25wpm to Chris= adjacent to an aviation=A0beacon, it just won't happen. =A0=0A=0A73 es GL = Pete M0FMT IO91UX=0A=0AFrom: James Moritz =0A= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0ASent: Tuesday, 28 February 2012, 0:02= =0ASubject: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation=0A=0ADear Mal, Ken, LF= Group,=0A=0AG3KEV wrote:=0A> The band should be licensed for CW operators = only so that they could recognize and read the CW=A0 beacons and AVOID >the= m.=0A=0AOne does not need to be a morse code expert to realise there is a s= trong signal repeating=A0 the same dots and dashes 24 hours a day on a part= icular frequency. One just needs a little common sense...=0A=0A> Has OFCOM = thought of this.=A0 Neither should there be any amateur unattended BEACONS = to jam the Primary user >Beacons even unintentionally.=0A=0AWhether the tra= nsmission is a "manual" QSO or automated, or if an NoV for an unattended be= acon was being applied for, the important thing for the amateur is to be aw= are of nearby NDBs and avoid transmitting on their frequencies - this is a = matter of=A0 observation and advance planning, not operating. If=A0 a coupl= e of amateurs are yakking away about the WX on a NDB frequency, in CW or an= y other mode, there is no way that the NDB will be able to break in at the = end of one over and say "excuse me chaps, but there are aircraft trying to = get a bearing on this frequency; would you mind QSYing - thank you so much"= =A0 ;-)=0A=0AThink about this from the Primary User's point of view - if so= meone navigating an aircraft sets their ADF receiver to a particular beacon= frequency and hears an assortment of amateur-generated morse code mixed up= with the beacon ID, this is likely to cause confusion or error. So there i= s a strong argument for amateurs not to use morse code at all in this frequ= ency range. It would be better to use totally different types of transmissi= on that would not be confused with a NDB beacon signal.=0A=0ACheers, Jim Mo= ritz=0A73 de M0BMU ---1867331490-1688617407-1330423487=:82729 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
Hi Jim and group
 
Non = flyer's seem to think an air pilot just uses instruments to t= he exclusion of all other senses. I have done flight training on light airc= raft, gliders and mixed with professional flyer's in previous jobs. They are= a very conservative bunch and very sceptical about what their instruments = tell them. Mark one eye ball being the best instrument. When learning there= is a strong tendency to = concentrate on the instrument panel but the call from the ins= tructor is always for "eyes out of the cabin". It is not the case that= an air pilot will follow to his death an erroneous signal. All instruments give = more than one clue as to what is going on. Radio instruments are used with a great deal = of circumspection and will be crossed checked against visual sigh= tings, dead reckoning and ground radar assistance. It is never the case that jus= t one instrument will be relied upon. At altitude many signals can be heard= from great distances and propagation conditions too can enhance signals to= levels so that they can block local signals. Air pilots are fully aware of= this and also they are aware of secondary users on "Their" radio channels = (viz; CIT is right in the middle of the MW BC band). There are a lot of fly= ing "ears" listening to all the beacons as part of their daily work as a pi= lot and anything new is soon passed on by air to air contact and ground air= traffic. The NOTAM system will inform all (and I mean all) air pilots of the changes and explain what is going on.
If you have not done flight training it is worth= it just to learn what a sceptical bunch flyer's are when it comes to instruments. The= older the pilot the more sceptical they are because they have seen so much= and been let down by ins= trumentation.
So I can not support the notion that we will see= terrible accidents occur= ring because Mal is rattling along at 25wpm to Chris adj= acent to an aviation beacon, it just won't happen.  

73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO= 91UX
From:= James Moritz <james.moritz@btopenworld.com>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
= Sent: Tuesday, 28 February = 2012, 0:02
Subject: LF: = Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation

Dear Mal, Ken,= LF Group,

G3KEV wrote:
> The band should be licensed for CW o= perators only so that they could recognize and read the CW  beacons an= d AVOID >them.

One does not need to be a morse code expert to rea= lise there is a strong signal repeating  the same dots and dashes 24 hours a day= on a particular frequency. One just needs a little common sense...

= > Has OFCOM thought of this.  Neither should there be any amateur u= nattended BEACONS to jam the Primary user >Beacons even unintentionally.=

Whether the transmission is a "manual" QSO or automated, or if an N= oV for an unattended beacon was being applied for, the important thing for = the amateur is to be aware of nearby NDBs and avoid transmitting on their f= requencies - this is a matter of  observation and advance planning, no= t operating. If  a couple of amateurs are yakking away about the WX on= a NDB frequency, in CW or any other mode, there is no way that the NDB wil= l be able to break in at the end of one over and say "excuse me chaps, but = there are aircraft trying to get a bearing on this frequency; would you min= d QSYing - thank you so much"  ;-)

Think about this from the Primary User's point of view - if someone navigating an aircraft sets = their ADF receiver to a particular beacon frequency and hears an assortment= of amateur-generated morse code mixed up with the beacon ID, this is likel= y to cause confusion or error. So there is a strong argument for amateurs n= ot to use morse code at all in this frequency range. It would be better to = use totally different types of transmission that would not be confused with= a NDB beacon signal.

Cheers, Jim Moritz
73 de M0BMU


<= BR>

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