Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dk02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 499DF380000A6; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 13:09:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1S24z0-00060z-7t for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:07:34 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1S24yz-00060q-Bh for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:07:33 +0000 Received: from nm18-vm0.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([77.238.189.215]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1S24yz-0003eO-58 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:07:33 +0000 Received: from [77.238.189.233] by nm18.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Feb 2012 18:05:02 -0000 Received: from [212.82.108.134] by tm14.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Feb 2012 18:05:02 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1039.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Feb 2012 18:05:02 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 384502.9847.bm@omp1039.mail.ird.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 39971 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Feb 2012 18:05:02 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1330365902; bh=QXlBcFZzN4PgSIIFuPJF65AJFeN9NJz4EQRtB7Fix8U=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ejzfSkKBGn1H50XKyN/eUtoQmk5wTSE1szFH0tkc8xyCUKq8WZpLwriX/g8MmAQn12cn13xUdQM1esz5XAhwGmWjOo2FtwJgOMkFZo8aU54NGSsryO6leTfK9HNj4hH/5255JTtd2YRcPo0sdlEMBmaYSwRLoO+ml3tcG5PU700= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=AMyjZxDCNReDHTsgtcMcTZ+OPeqObOk7DxaZhTofBIUZTGleWSf8FYCC3T3ghahqiCo+4+M5HqyBnLdUTLOm962F1TiuF3n76D/7Fr/DMbhvzqflsWao6FPHiQ9RwyZVbJO9pCG10J2Fz/MqKpkrOyM9pK1zCqx0Azrjkop5FLc=; X-YMail-OSG: cL0mPnYVM1k3PQ4pMpZZKyoaULJosGZ5O7G3VGDFSkD58Ny 8TGnc_jOSk754KoaYsbOcnPFhnHKQjEV5A_mU2cmXgs71VGNk.Tol_oSI0Nv hDB.aGCqpHX79FpX5Z3SBLJl8e7QkMnMQsEl5D2EiBg6mjUF_91Peu05Gi7T Xhcz2bv_4DL.C9rHv7f.8I9o_m2O.uadx1mC57eJ..EduW_hhksCfzuBk6JG OrTz_4O_qC_oaPp0DxQlI_lCOzCClP48Fr4UP7Mo4jYA0gllA5WoG6.pbX5D 6CCnAHVLcOAMtOkJLh3F9w8kek9tme7dT.G_UAoklfPBo9za1iLnKf_Xw.Ft 2fAdrlXqAzkekMIoN5WW5apwxSr_hCDEpkzlxVX1YZFjYqymwqCOKU96jqyE fQVddKpCDA7DoxpNZ8M.3jmTCyCJHmRGDLtTw_FOnJtb7GDDIzjbC37xmv1U T3AbG.tomBtnuMXu5XoV4TZ9AqVrpTNFWjSq3i9DGUOXLvbVi6MSCp4nDPYD qmuDW_51sEgdaGsw- Received: from [86.164.144.252] by web171615.mail.ir2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:05:02 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.116.338427 References: <74845C11BC3444D79B63A207E428BDE0@lindavideo> <1205576556-1330352309-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-124445598-@b27.c11.bise7.blackberry> <005701ccf561$cd9d4250$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <1330356157.77477.YahooMailNeo@web171614.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <007f01ccf56e$96ba9640$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> Message-ID: <1330365902.39602.YahooMailNeo@web171615.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:05:02 +0000 (GMT) From: M0FMT To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" In-Reply-To: <007f01ccf56e$96ba9640$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1756729520-373282140-1330365902=:39602" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_FONT_BIG, HTML_MESSAGE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:490900544:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m251.2 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1db4064f4bc6ca0814 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none --1756729520-373282140-1330365902=:39602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK Mal=0A=A0=0AIt's a great idea for those like my self who enjoys CW altho= ugh not good at it. I find a great deal of satisfaction completing even a s= hort CW qso over any other mode of qso. As far as NDB goes, flight is all a= bout safety. VFR followed by careful use of instrument in non VFR condition= s. NDB have proved they totally reliable probably because of their simplici= ty and the shear number of ground based sites make it a reliable system.=A0= Aviation is a very conservative industry for very obvious reasons. Navigati= on by mark one eye ball and dead reckoning. Oh there are old pilots=A0and b= old pilots.....=A0I am sure you know the rest.=0A=0A=0A73 es GL Pete M0FMT = IO91UX=0A=0AFrom: mal hamilton =0ATo: rsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org =0ASent: Monday, 27 February 2012, 16:41=0ASubject: Re: LF: = Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation=0A=0A=0APete=0AThis proposal is common= sense, considering the Primary users are all CW=A0navigational safety=A0BE= ACONS=A0and surely OFCOM and the RSGB know this. If they arrived at any oth= er decision it would be=A0unwise. It is also prudent to keep the NDB networ= k alive in the event that the GPS system is Zapped.=A0In fact the DECCA sys= tem probably should have been retained as a standby. =0AThere are still som= e MF/HF=A0ssb frequencies in use and this is also a good idea in the event = that INMAR sat=A0and associated marine satellites fail or get zapped.=0AMod= ern technology has produced some fantastic TOYS and SYSTEMS=A0but FRAGILE= =A0and vunerable to cyber attacks, emp's and=A0in the hands of third partie= s where the user has no control.=0AOn the other hand a couple of=A0Radio Op= erators with simple CW transmitters and receivers are totally in control of= a communications link and multiply this throughout the country and you hav= e a complete communications network=A0with multiple=A0independent alternati= ve links.=0AThis is the way=A0it used to be and as they say=A0HISTORY REPEA= TS ITSELF. =0AMaybe Valve/Tube technology ought to be revisited as well if = we want robust devices. Modern chips only need a trace of electrostatic dis= charge when you comb your hair of walk on a nylon carpet to get zapped or a= rain storm destroys your RX front end !!=0AI understand some countries sti= ll use TUBES for radio communication equipment not because they lack so cal= led =A0modern technology but because they are playing safe when it comes to= reliability and robustness.=0A=A0=0A=A0=A0=0Ag3kev=0A=A0=0A----- Original = Message ----- =0A>From: M0FMT =0A>To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A>Sent= : Monday, February 27, 2012 3:22 PM=0A>Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-12 L= F band allocation=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Now you are talking Mal=A0=A0 ....= .. :-) Propose it!=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX=0A>=0A>From: m= al hamilton =0A>To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A= >Sent: Monday, 27 February 2012, 15:09=0A>Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-1= 2 LF band allocation=0A>=0A>=0A>The band should be licensed for CW operator= s only so that they could recognize and read the CW=A0 beacons and AVOID th= em.=0A>Has OFCOM thought of this.=A0=A0Neither should there be any amateur = unattended BEACONS=A0to jam the Primary user Beacons even unintentionally.= =0A>g3kev=0A>=0A>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>From: ken.h.wright@btint= ernet.com =0A>>To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A>>Sent: Monday, February= 27, 2012 2:20 PM=0A>>Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation= =0A>>=0A>>Hi all. Following on from Tracey's info what would be the various= regulators reaction be if we were crowded out of this band as we only have= on a secondary basis. 73. Ken. M00KHW =0A>>Sent from my BlackBerry=AE wire= less device=0A>>From: "Tracey Gardner" =0A>>S= ender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A>>Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 11:50= :43 -0000=0A>>To: =0A>>ReplyTo: rsgb_lf_group= @blacksheep.org =0A>>Subject: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation=0A>>= =0A>>=0A>>Hello Ken=0A>>=0A>>I doubt it, but you never know.=0A>>I've just = checked our Received In Europe (REU) database and there are some 29 inactiv= e NDBs listed in the 472-479kHz range. =0A>>If they were all to become acti= ve that would roughly double the number of NDBs in that segment.=0A>>=0A>>h= ttp://www.classaxe.com/dx/ndb/reu/=0A>>=0A>>73s Tracey G5VU=0A>>----- Origi= nal Message ----- =0A>>>From: Ken =0A>>>To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = =0A>>>Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 10:06 AM=0A>>>Subject: LF: NDBs & WRC= -12 LF band allocation=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Dear all LFs=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>With the= WRC-12 new LF band allocation is it possible that any dormant NDBs there w= ill be resurrected to justify their slot in the band? =0A>>>=A0=0A>>>73s=0A= >>>=A0=0A>>>Ken=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>M0KHW=0A>=0A> --1756729520-373282140-1330365902=:39602 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK Mal
 
It's a great idea fo= r those like my self who enjoys CW although not good at it. I find a great = deal of satisfaction completing even a short CW qso over any other mode of qso. As far= as NDB goes, flight is all about safety= . VFR followed by careful use of instrument in non VFR conditions. NDB have= pr= oved they totally reliable probably because of their simplicity and the shear number of ground based sites make it a = reliable system. Aviation is a very conservative industry for very obv= ious reasons. Navigation by mark one eye ball and dead reckoning. Oh there = are old pilots and bold pilots..... I am sure you know the rest.

73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX
From:= mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Monday, 27 February 2012, 16= :41
Subject: Re: LF: Re:= NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation

Pete
This proposal is common sense, considering the Prim= ary users are all CW navigational safety BEACONS and surely = OFCOM and the RSGB know this. If they arrived at any other decision it woul= d be unwise. It is also prudent to keep the NDB network alive in the e= vent that the GPS system is Zapped. In fact the DECCA system probably = should have been retained as a standby.
There are still some MF/HF ssb frequencies in = use and this is also a good idea in the event that INMAR sat and assoc= iated marine satellites fail or get zapped.
Modern technology has produced some fantastic TOYS = and SYSTEMS but FRAGILE and vunerable to cyber attacks, emp's and=  in the hands of third parties where the user has no control.
On the other hand a couple of Radio Operators = with simple CW transmitters and receivers are totally in control of a commu= nications link and multiply this throughout the country and you have a comp= lete communications network with multiple independent alternative= links.
This is the way it used to be and as they say&= nbsp;HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF.
Maybe Valve/Tube technology ought to be revisited a= s well if we want robust devices. Modern chips only need a trace of electro= static discharge when you comb your hair of walk on a nylon carpet to get z= apped or a rain storm destroys your RX front end !!
I understand some countries still use TUBES for rad= io communication equipment not because they lack so called  modern tec= hnology but because they are playing safe when it comes to reliability and = robustness.
 
  
g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
From: M0FMT
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 3:22= PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-= 12 LF band allocation


 
Now you are talking Mal   ...... :-) Propose it!


73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX
From: mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Monday, 27 February 2012, 15:09
= Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs &= amp; WRC-12 LF band allocation

The band should be licensed for CW operators only s= o that they could recognize and read the CW  beacons and AVOID them.
Has OFCOM thought of this.  Neither shoul= d there be any amateur unattended BEACONS to jam the Primary user Beac= ons even unintentionally.
g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:20= PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-= 12 LF band allocation

Hi all. Following on from Tracey's info what would be the va= rious regulators reaction be if we were crowded out of this band as we only= have on a secondary basis. 73. Ken. M00KHW=20
Sent from my BlackBerry=AE wireless device
From: "Tracey Gardner" <tracey.gardner@talktalk.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 11:50:43 -0000
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
ReplyTo: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation

Hello Ken
 
I doubt it, but you never know.
I've just checked our Received In Europe (REU) database and there are = some 29 inactive NDBs listed in the 472-479kHz range.
If they were all to become active that would roughly double the number= of NDBs in that segment.
 
 
73s Tracey G5VU
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 10:0= 6 AM
Subject: LF: NDBs & WRC-12 LF ba= nd allocation

Dear all LFs
 <= /DIV>
With the WRC-12 new L= F band allocation is it possible that any dormant NDBs there will be resurr= ected to justify their slot in the band?
 <= /DIV>
73s
 <= /DIV>
Ken
 <= /DIV>
M0KHW


<= /DIV>


--1756729520-373282140-1330365902=:39602--