Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dl01.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 0E07A3800008B; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 11:42:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1S23dQ-0004yM-73 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:41:12 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1S23dP-0004yD-IP for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:41:11 +0000 Received: from out1.ip05ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.241]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1S23dM-0002qF-Vm for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:41:11 +0000 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgIFAP+wS09cF/ZD/2dsb2JhbABDglGaZ5YBgQiBbgUBAQUIAQEDSQIsAQEDBQIBAxEDAQEBCiUUAQQDFwYWCAYTCgECAgEBh3kHr2eILIkPg2kDBQEBBQUEAQQEAwEBAwUCWgwBhQAPMgEFAwIDBwEDAgQBAwoIAgEBgywEgl2EI4EchTqSfodX X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,491,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="371707195" Received: from host-92-23-246-67.as13285.net (HELO xphd97xgq27nyf) ([92.23.246.67]) by out1.ip05ir2.opaltelecom.net with SMTP; 27 Feb 2012 16:41:01 +0000 Message-ID: <007f01ccf56e$96ba9640$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> From: "mal hamilton" To: References: <74845C11BC3444D79B63A207E428BDE0@lindavideo> <1205576556-1330352309-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-124445598-@b27.c11.bise7.blackberry> <005701ccf561$cd9d4250$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <1330356157.77477.YahooMailNeo@web171614.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:41:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007C_01CCF56E.967A31E0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_FONT_BIG, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:480304288:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d4acf4f4bb2764232 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01CCF56E.967A31E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pete This proposal is common sense, considering the Primary users are all CW = navigational safety BEACONS and surely OFCOM and the RSGB know this. If = they arrived at any other decision it would be unwise. It is also = prudent to keep the NDB network alive in the event that the GPS system = is Zapped. In fact the DECCA system probably should have been retained = as a standby.=20 There are still some MF/HF ssb frequencies in use and this is also a = good idea in the event that INMAR sat and associated marine satellites = fail or get zapped. Modern technology has produced some fantastic TOYS and SYSTEMS but = FRAGILE and vunerable to cyber attacks, emp's and in the hands of third = parties where the user has no control. On the other hand a couple of Radio Operators with simple CW = transmitters and receivers are totally in control of a communications = link and multiply this throughout the country and you have a complete = communications network with multiple independent alternative links. This is the way it used to be and as they say HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF.=20 Maybe Valve/Tube technology ought to be revisited as well if we want = robust devices. Modern chips only need a trace of electrostatic = discharge when you comb your hair of walk on a nylon carpet to get = zapped or a rain storm destroys your RX front end !! I understand some countries still use TUBES for radio communication = equipment not because they lack so called modern technology but because = they are playing safe when it comes to reliability and robustness. =20 g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M0FMT=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 3:22 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation Now you are talking Mal ...... :-) Propose it! 73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX From: mal hamilton To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, 27 February 2012, 15:09 Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation The band should be licensed for CW operators only so that they could = recognize and read the CW beacons and AVOID them. Has OFCOM thought of this. Neither should there be any amateur = unattended BEACONS to jam the Primary user Beacons even unintentionally. g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ken.h.wright@btinternet.com=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:20 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation Hi all. Following on from Tracey's info what would be the various = regulators reaction be if we were crowded out of this band as we only = have on a secondary basis. 73. Ken. M00KHW=20 Sent from my BlackBerry=AE wireless device From: "Tracey Gardner" =20 Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 11:50:43 -0000 To: ReplyTo: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation Hello Ken I doubt it, but you never know. I've just checked our Received In Europe (REU) database and there = are some 29 inactive NDBs listed in the 472-479kHz range.=20 If they were all to become active that would roughly double the = number of NDBs in that segment. http://www.classaxe.com/dx/ndb/reu/ 73s Tracey G5VU ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ken=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 10:06 AM Subject: LF: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation Dear all LFs With the WRC-12 new LF band allocation is it possible that any = dormant NDBs there will be resurrected to justify their slot in the = band?=20 73s Ken M0KHW ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01CCF56E.967A31E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pete
This proposal is common sense, considering the = Primary=20 users are all CW navigational safety BEACONS and surely = OFCOM and=20 the RSGB know this. If they arrived at any other decision it would=20 be unwise. It is also prudent to keep the NDB network alive in the = event=20 that the GPS system is Zapped. In fact the DECCA system probably = should=20 have been retained as a standby.
There are still some MF/HF ssb frequencies = in use and=20 this is also a good idea in the event that INMAR sat and associated = marine=20 satellites fail or get zapped.
Modern technology has produced some fantastic = TOYS and=20 SYSTEMS but FRAGILE and vunerable to cyber attacks, emp's = and in=20 the hands of third parties where the user has no control.
On the other hand a couple of Radio = Operators with=20 simple CW transmitters and receivers are totally in control of a = communications=20 link and multiply this throughout the country and you have a complete=20 communications network with multiple independent alternative=20 links.
This is the way it used to be and as they=20 say HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF.
Maybe Valve/Tube technology ought to be = revisited as well=20 if we want robust devices. Modern chips only need a trace of = electrostatic=20 discharge when you comb your hair of walk on a nylon carpet to get = zapped or a=20 rain storm destroys your RX front end !!
I understand some countries still use TUBES for = radio=20 communication equipment not because they lack so called  modern = technology=20 but because they are playing safe when it comes to reliability and=20 robustness.
 
  
g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 M0FMT
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 = 3:22=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs & = WRC-12 LF=20 band allocation


 
Now you are talking Mal   ...... = :-)=20 Propose it!


73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX
From: mal=20 hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Sent: Monday, 27 = February=20 2012, 15:09
Subject: Re: LF:=20 Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band allocation

The band should be licensed for CW operators = only so=20 that they could recognize and read the CW  beacons and AVOID=20 them.
Has OFCOM thought of this.  Neither = should=20 there be any amateur unattended BEACONS to jam the Primary user = Beacons=20 even unintentionally.
g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org=20
Sent: Monday, February 27, = 2012 2:20=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: NDBs = & WRC-12=20 LF band allocation

Hi all. Following on from Tracey's info what would be = the=20 various regulators reaction be if we were crowded out of this band = as we=20 only have on a secondary basis. 73. Ken. M00KHW=20
Sent from my BlackBerry=AE wireless device
From: "Tracey Gardner" <tracey.gardner@talktalk.ne= t>=20
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 11:50:43 -0000
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
ReplyTo: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: Re: NDBs & WRC-12 LF band = allocation

Hello Ken
 
I doubt it, but you never know.
I've just checked our Received In Europe (REU) database and = there are=20 some 29 inactive NDBs listed in the 472-479kHz range.
If they were all to become active that would roughly double the = number=20 of NDBs in that segment.
 
 
73s Tracey G5VU
----- Original Message ----- =
From: = Ken
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org=20
Sent: Monday, February 27, = 2012 10:06=20 AM
Subject: LF: NDBs & = WRC-12 LF=20 band allocation

Dear all=20 LFs
 
With the WRC-12 new = LF band=20 allocation is it possible that any dormant NDBs there will be = resurrected=20 to justify their slot in the band?
 
73s
 
Ken
 
M0KHW


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