Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mb04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 6750A38000092; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 20:56:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1RhtbE-0004Jw-18 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:55:36 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1RhtbD-0004Jn-A5 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:55:35 +0000 Received: from mail-ww0-f47.google.com ([74.125.82.47]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1RhtbB-0004Ca-Ov for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:55:35 +0000 Received: by wgbdr10 with SMTP id dr10so23852204wgb.28 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:55:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=DEtaDwuoxB8q9XGNrTp1BLBdjMqCVfLSq/7qbgicUZg=; b=Zw+ovhGm7DYe7uYZ+QX9edpAA7eW4SpcYnm+z0euwr8GVfAALAucboJqLeTtlx5RIM fPRMOPHW8tgZlefl+6yloiwYdnmxrvHe3Pk5yddi+Ta9744a3ydBpXzTM91M9aKbhYEw VM38xiXWi+1eaiCTDWlK71rv5vmvIEBrEYh6Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.200.19 with SMTP id eu19mr40571431wbb.12.1325555727690; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:55:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.90.74 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 17:55:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <00a301ccc9a6$da87aaa0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> References: <008301ccc97c$51d9fcf0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <00a301ccc9a6$da87aaa0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 01:55:27 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Douglas D. Williams" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Antennas Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517510be0476bf204b595fe33 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:480470016:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d011.1 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60184f02604d15f5 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none --001517510be0476bf204b595fe33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, no arguing that if you have the acreage, and a nice quiet location, large wire antenna systems are the way to go. Mike Mideke here in the U.S. used to live on a large ranch and, IIRC, had literally miles of wire strung up for receiving, with impressive results. At one point, I had a 260' long "inverted V" antenna that I used on shortwave, and with a homebrew tuner for LF reception, but this was before the advent of QRSS. If I recall correctly, at my QTH the longwire simply picked up more local QRM. I have, on occasion, successfully used very small e-probe "micro antennas" to audibly receive normal speed CW beacons here in the U.S. "lowfer" band (160-190 kHz), at a distance of several hundred kilometers. This is only impressive when you consider our transmitting restrictions on that band, which is 1 Watt input into an antenna no more than 15 meters long (including feedline). But, those occasions were rare, and only during the best of conditions. I'm afraid that, given my current property limitations and QRM environment, small loops and e-probe type antennas are my best option. -Doug KB4OER On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 11:32 PM, mal hamilton wrote: > ** > Doug > If you want to HEAR the signals with sufficient strength to work normal CW > . Large antennas of the kind I mentioned are normal on 160 metres for > working long haul DX. > Micro RX antennas are only useful for VISUAL QRSS signal observations or > receiving Broadcast high power stations. > Let me know when you HEAR an Amateur radio EU signal with a micro antenna > at your qth. > I can only HEAR signals on LF/MF from the USA with sufficient strength for > a CW audio QSO using a my large wire antenna system. > They are visible on micro antennas at QRSS speeds but not AUDIBLE > > de mal/g3kev > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Douglas D. Williams > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Sent:* Monday, January 02, 2012 9:53 PM > *Subject:* Re: LF: Antennas > > Mal, you lost me on this one. Are you suggesting I (or we.....here in > North America) erect large verticals, inv L systems, Rhombics, and V beams > in order to receive EU LF signals? > > > I thought I was doing pretty well with my micro RX antenna! > > > Doug KB4OEr > > > > > On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 6:28 PM, mal hamilton wrote: > >> ** >> LF es MF >> Reports from across the pond and other DX locations as far as Tenneesee >> and Kansas using micro probe antennas are great for QRSS speeds but not >> suitable for audio reception. >> Take 160 metres for example where it is normal to work world wide on cw >> but antennas in use are large verticals, inv L systems, Rhombics and V >> beams, therefore to have any chance of receiving signals at audio level on >> LF or MF large antennas of the calibre used on 160 metres are necessary. >> As well as TX at this QTH I also use large arrays for RX and often hear >> signals from NA that would not be audible with small loops, micro probes or >> ferrite sticks >> Recently on 500 I was able to copy a W stn 579 but a DL stn copied only >> on screen, when I asked what strength the signal was I got no >> reply!!!!!!!!!!!!! using a micro probe antenna. >> If a proper large antenna system is not used on LF es MF then there is >> virtually NIL chance of an audio report from across the pond for EU stns es >> vice versa >> Back some years ago I had audio reports from the Boston area but the >> antennas were proper wire arrays as used on 160 metres >> Small hand held antennas are fine for High Power BC strength signals but >> not for low power amateur signals to be heard >> No commercial LF/MF station would even consider an antenna of the micro >> variety. >> When I was in the business some years ago on LF/MF Rhombics and V-Beams >> were the norm >> de mal/g3kev >> >> >> >> >> > > --001517510be0476bf204b595fe33 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, no arguing that if you have the acreage, and a nice quiet locati= on,=A0large wire antenna systems are the way to go. Mike Mideke here in the= U.S. used to live on a large=A0ranch and, IIRC, had literally miles of wir= e strung up for receiving, with impressive results.
=A0
At one point, I had a 260'=A0long "inverted V&q= uot; antenna that I used on shortwave, and with a homebrew=A0tuner for LF r= eception, but this was before the advent of QRSS. If I recall correctly, at= my QTH the longwire simply picked up more local QRM.
=A0
I have, on occasion,=A0successfully used=A0very small e-= probe "micro antennas" to audibly receive normal speed=A0CW beaco= ns here in the U.S. "lowfer" band (160-190 kHz), at a distance=A0= of several hundred kilometers. This is only impressive when you consider ou= r transmitting restrictions on that band, which is 1 Watt input into an ant= enna no more than 15 meters long (including feedline). But, those occasions= were rare, and only during the best of conditions.
=A0
I'm afraid that, given my current property limitatio= ns and QRM environment, small loops and e-probe type antennas are my best o= ption.
=A0
-Doug KB4OER

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 11:32 PM, mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net> wrot= e:
Doug
If you want to HEAR the signals with sufficient s= trength=20 to work normal CW . Large antennas of the kind I mentioned=A0are normal on= =20 160 metres for working long haul DX.
Micro RX antennas are only useful for VISUAL QRSS= signal=20 observations or receiving Broadcast high power stations.
Let me know when you HEAR an Amateur radio =A0EU = signal=20 with a micro antenna at your qth.
I can only HEAR signals on LF/MF from the USA wit= h=20 sufficient strength for a CW audio QSO using a my large=A0wire antenna=20 system.
They are visible on micro antennas at QRSS speeds= but not=20 AUDIBLE
=A0
de mal/g3kev
=A0
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 9:53=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Antennas

Mal, you lost me on this one. Are you suggesting I (or we.....here i= n=20 North America) erect large verticals, inv L systems, Rhombics, and V beam= s in=20 order to receive EU LF signals?
=A0
=A0
I thought I was doing pretty well with my micro RX antenna!
=A0
=A0
Doug KB4OEr
=A0


=A0
On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 6:28 PM, mal hamilton <= span dir=3D"ltr"><g3kevmal@talktalk.net>=20 wrote:
LF es MF
Reports from across the pond and other DX loc= ations as=20 far as Tenneesee and Kansas using micro probe antennas are great for QR= SS=20 speeds but not suitable for audio reception.
Take 160 metres for example where it is norma= l to work=20 world wide on cw but antennas in use are large verticals, inv L systems= ,=20 Rhombics and V beams, therefore to have any chance of receiving signals= at=20 audio level on LF or MF large antennas of the calibre used on 160 metre= s are=20 necessary.
As well as TX at this QTH I also use large ar= rays for=20 RX and often hear signals from NA that would not be audible with small= =20 loops, micro probes or ferrite sticks
Recently on 500 I was able to copy a W stn 57= 9 but a=20 DL stn copied only on screen, when I asked what strength the signal was= I=20 got no reply!!!!!!!!!!!!! using a micro probe antenna.
If a proper large antenna system is not used = on LF es=20 MF then there is virtually NIL chance of an audio report from across th= e=20 pond for EU stns es vice versa
Back some years ago I had audio reports from = the=20 Boston area but the antennas were proper wire arrays as used on 160=20 metres
Small hand held antennas are fine for=A0High = Power=20 =A0BC strength signals but not for low power amateur signals to be=20 heard
No commercial LF/MF station would even consid= er an=20 antenna of the micro variety.
When I was in the business some years ago on = LF/MF=20 Rhombics and V-Beams were the norm
de mal/g3kev
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0

=

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