Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-df03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 98518380000A0; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 10:12:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1RjXvr-0004pd-5L for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:11:43 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1RjXvq-0004pU-Il for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:11:42 +0000 Received: from mail-we0-f171.google.com ([74.125.82.171]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1RjXvo-0007R2-DS for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:11:42 +0000 Received: by werg1 with SMTP id g1so3216321wer.16 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 07:11:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=VltBGZraUkcCmL2n6k1M4xqYC3DC5dR4TKXbr1zP9Vk=; b=IxySR359Lt42aDZnCr/v9YCQShyMecBQNdhEOgirgg/sIdkmtiuHTDGgPf4yB0g16P +AaDQLFHDmmAwqENQtOeUctOgl0sQZ8aVPdK4+2Qa/O87C+OXv/TlKJcbe80tk16NAJ0 V35c7rEO0iGG3meNcdbM7V7BkdKyUu/8Hx8Gc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.132.139 with SMTP id o11mr4778843wei.33.1325949094396; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 07:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.164.135 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 07:11:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <002c01cccd49$570b8060$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> References: <001801cccd27$b3b5da80$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <002c01cccd49$570b8060$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 10:11:34 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Douglas D. Williams" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: JA/EU Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6de0407c3036904b5f194bc X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:505186752:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m007.2 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40d74f0860e43b2e X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none --0016e6de0407c3036904b5f194bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yes, thanks Mal, my question was answered with some good information. No, I have been monitoring the USA "Lowfer Band" (160-190 kHz) for the past couple of nights, with good success. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/33457409/185300Hz.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/33457409/185300Hz%20WM%26SWI.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/33457409/186850Hz%20SJ.jpg The FCC rules on transmitting in this band are severe. In a nutshell: 1 Watt into an antenna no more than 15 meters in length (including feedline). Most operators put the PA right at the base of the antenna. The captures you see above are at distances of up to 600(ish) miles. A transatlantic reception of one of these beacons would be quite a feat. If anyone is interested in trying here is a link to the beacons and frequencies: http://www.lwca.org/sitepage/part15/index.htm Note that the operators in the 137 kHz frequencies are running much higher power and are not subject to the same antenna restrictions and the "Lowfers" are. I will probably turn my attention back to Europe this evening. 73, Doug KB4OER On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 9:33 AM, mal hamilton wrote: > ** > Hi Doug > I see another has replied to your query which is more or less correct but > there are other variables depending on installation especially in radio > amateur circles. > Did you observe any acty on 136.173 earlier on today. I was on TX for a > short period before my sunrise 0630/0730 utc > 73 es gl > de mal/g3kev > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Douglas D. Williams > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Sent:* Saturday, January 07, 2012 12:06 PM > *Subject:* Re: LF: JA/EU > > Mal, I understand the relevance of what you are saying on HF, and even > medium wave, but could you (or anyone who cares to) give me a brief > explaination, or point me to a source of information, on LF propagation? I > was under the (admittedly simplistic) understanding that, the lower one > goes in frequency, the more the signal propagates via groundwave. I do know > that almost all military installations transmitting in the VLF/LF bands use > vertical antennas (very, very large ones with huge capacity hats). Do > signals at 136 kHz experience "skip" from ionispheric reflection, similar > to HF signals? > > Doug KB4OER > > On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 5:32 AM, mal hamilton wrote: > >> ** >> LF >> No sigs visible in JA from EU last nite at the peak time, around 2150 z. >> The JA grabber moved freq so not possible to check at 0740z the other peak >> time. >> I think the antenna used for transmitting has some influence on the >> launch angle and distance covered and likewise the type of antenna at the >> receive site. ie low or high angle. >> A vertical TX antenna system as high as possible would produce low angle >> signals, preferable for long haul DX, and low horizontal wires, loops etc >> would produce high angle, ideal for short ranges but not ideal for DX >> although the odd time high angle also does the trick. Large vertical loops >> fed correctly at the side produce low angles but small vertical loops >> relative to frequency ie LF might be difficult to evaluate. >> de g3kev >> >> >> >> >> > > --0016e6de0407c3036904b5f194bc Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, thanks Mal,=A0my question=A0was answered with some good informati= on.
=A0
No, I have been monitoring the USA "Lowfe= r Band" (160-190 kHz) for the past couple of nights, with good success= .
=A0
=A0
http:= //dl.dropbox.com/u/33457409/185300Hz%20WM%26SWI.jpg
=A0
=A0=
=A0
The FCC rules on transmitting in this band are sev= ere. In a nutshell: 1 Watt into an antenna no more than 15 meters in length= (including feedline). Most operators put the PA right at the base of the a= ntenna. The captures you see above are at distances of up to 600(ish) miles= .
=A0
A transatlantic reception of one of these beacons would = be quite a feat. If anyone is interested in trying here is a link to the be= acons and frequencies: http://www.lwca.org/sitepage/part15/index.htm
=A0
Note that the operators in the 137 kHz frequencies are r= unning much higher power and are not subject to the same antenna restrictio= ns and the "Lowfers" are.
=A0
I will probably= turn my attention back to Europe this evening.
=A0
73,
Doug KB4OER
=A0
=A0
=A0


=A0
On Sat, J= an 7, 2012 at 9:33 AM, mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net> wrote:
Hi Doug
I see another has replied to your query which is = more or=20 less correct but there are other variables depending on installation especi= ally=20 in radio amateur circles.
Did you observe any acty on 136.173 earlier on to= day. I=20 was on TX for a short period before my sunrise 0630/0730 utc
73 es gl
de mal/g3kev
=A0
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 12:06=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: JA/EU

Mal, I understand the relevance of what you are saying on HF, and ev= en=20 medium wave, but could you (or anyone who cares to) give me a brief=20 explaination, or point me to a source of information, on LF propagation? = I was=20 under the (admittedly simplistic) understanding that, the lower one goes = in=20 frequency, the more the signal propagates via groundwave. I do know that= =20 almost all military installations transmitting in the VLF/LF bands use=20 vertical antennas (very, very large ones with huge capacity hats). Do sig= nals=20 at 136 kHz experience "skip" from ionispheric reflection, simil= ar to HF=20 signals?
=A0
Doug KB4OER

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 5:32 AM, mal hamilton <= span dir=3D"ltr"><g3kevmal@talktalk.net>=20 wrote:
LF
No sigs visible in JA from EU last nite at th= e peak=20 time, around 2150 z. The JA grabber moved freq so not possible to check= at=20 0740z the other peak time.
I think the antenna used for transmitting has= some=20 influence on the launch angle and distance covered and likewise the typ= e of=20 antenna at the receive site. ie low or high angle.
A vertical TX antenna system as high as possi= ble would=20 produce low angle signals, preferable for long haul DX, and low horizon= tal=20 wires, loops etc would produce high angle, ideal for short ranges but n= ot=20 ideal for DX although the odd time high angle also does the trick. Larg= e=20 vertical loops fed correctly at the side=A0=A0produce low angles but=20 small vertical loops relative to frequency ie LF might be difficult to= =20 evaluate.
de g3kev
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0

=

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