Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mb02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 225DD3800008F; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:18:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1RrDms-0002jg-MA for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 19:18:10 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1RrDms-0002jX-6p for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 19:18:10 +0000 Received: from mail-iy0-f171.google.com ([209.85.210.171]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1RrDmp-0007KE-TH for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 19:18:10 +0000 Received: by iaeh11 with SMTP id h11so6351600iae.16 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:18:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=uZngMGo9rNllLrR8dR4D3tuhp/3uNfh0/r7Zn3HVJ2I=; b=JmlCnvX7U54QxJRAhaTAqvSJwjRCZTAd/XoQ4ZAmlqrXYrannusWNcQF2b1U9pPVHC 8NFqgC1YeT/EXRYHCIrUs6bzZSWGg5l/ecKbDhHK8xady0YwdBhbAQEHj/o2t6m6v43R YuVwOsDVJUuFJAva++zA4Mz5bYQdhd62jcRQA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.89.196 with SMTP id bq4mr11538146igb.26.1327778281059; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:18:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.12.140 with HTTP; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:18:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F1F695F.7020400@charter.net> References: <3992CC59F7A14AA694628529761EC5DE@AGB> <4F1F695F.7020400@charter.net> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 19:18:01 +0000 Message-ID: From: Andy Talbot To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Subject: Re: LF: WOLF DATA MODE S/N FIG ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:429942912:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d008.2 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60164f244a1b37fb X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none I've been thinking about the maths behind Wolf and it gets quite interesting. One thing we can say, its definitely a spread spectrum system !!!!!!!! SRI USA Hams :-( A message of 15 characters taken from an alphabet of 40 (A-Z 0-9 and a few punctuation) give 80 source bits of data after compression. These are expanded to 480 data bits in six parallel tail-biting convolutional encoders. In pure error correction terms this seems like mega-overkill, so there's more than meets the eye going on... Interleaving may or may not then be employed, but it doesn't affect things. The 480 bits are then merged with another 480 bits of a PN seqeunce (in a not totally dissimilar way that I suspect Opera does) to allow the decoder to lock to the sequence. The whole lot is then transmitted at 10 Symbols/s BPSK so the whole message takes 96 seconds The underlying data is 80 bits, so without any sequential merging, to a rough approximation it equates to about 1 bit every 1.2 seconds, so you could say the effective bandwidth is 0.833Hz and the very strong FEC will allow something like +2 to +3dB S/N for decoding in this bandwidth. So therefore something like 3dB up on WSPR, and about the same as OP8 with the same mean power. (I know PSK and FSK don't have the same noise performance, but just ignore the details for now! There's probably a couple of dB in it when signals are weak) But its not this simple. Being a fully coherent system, and unlike WSPR/JTxx/Opera and any other non-coherent mode, successive messages can be overlaid. They can even be used as part of a soft decision decoding tree, and theoretically could go on for ever - providing it is possible to maintain synchronisation. So by continuously looking at repeated message, the effective bandwidth will get lower by the average of the number of times it has been repeated. Two repeats 3dB or half BW, 4 repeats 6dB , 8 repeeats 9dB etc etc Does this seem about right ? Andy www.g4jnt.com On 25 January 2012 02:30, John Andrews wrote: > Graham, > > There is no single s/n figure or specified BW in which to measure it. WOLF > works by building copy up over a period of time, and assuming good > frequency/phase stability, a half hour or more is practical. > > The data rate is fairly fast, 10 b/s, with a 960 bit message, so that a > complete frame of data is sent in 96 seconds. You get three quick reports in > the first 96 seconds, and then decodes every 96 seconds after. Each message > is 15 characters, with no rules about callsign format. > > Tests done some years ago show it roughly equivalent to QRSS60 in terms of > signal level. It does give some clues as to whether a signal has been > locked-in, and has the possibility of partial copy, unlike some "all or > nothing" modes. Fifteen characters in a half-hour is of course much faster > than QRSS60 would permit. 2-way QSO's are fairly easy with some advance > agreement on what to do with the 15 characters. > > The downsides are the need for a linear transmitter system (as this is PSK), > receiver/transmitter stability and frequency accuracy. It works at 600 > meters, but is fairly useless at 160 meters and up. > > The newest version is by DL4YHF, and may be found at: > http://www.qsl.net/d/dl4yhf//wolf/ . > > Note that this version has 5 b/s and 20 b/s variations. Testing has shown > that the program tends to provide copy in the same amount of time, so > there's no overriding advantage to either. > > John, W1TAG > > > On 1/24/2012 7:27 PM, Graham wrote: >> >> WOLF DATA MODE S/N FIG ? >> Long time since I used wolf , anyone have the >> expected decode min s/n level ? >> and now what s/n was ref to , as changes >> may of taken place over time >> Tnx -G. >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4162 - Release Date: 01/23/12 >> 19:34:00 >> >