Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dd06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 10A59380000AE; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 17:38:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1RsMJt-0004mM-0W for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:36:57 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1RsMJs-0004mD-FH for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:36:56 +0000 Received: from rhcavuit02.kulnet.kuleuven.be ([134.58.240.130] helo=cavuit02.kulnet.kuleuven.be) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1RsMJq-0004Cv-10 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:36:56 +0000 X-KULeuven-Envelope-From: rik.strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be X-KULeuven-Scanned: Found to be clean X-KULeuven-ID: 7E4BD12808B.ABBE5 X-KULeuven-Information: Katholieke Universiteit Leuven Received: from smtps01.kuleuven.be (smtpshost01.kulnet.kuleuven.be [134.58.240.74]) by cavuit02.kulnet.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E4BD12808B for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:36:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from ICTS-S-HUB-N2.luna.kuleuven.be (icts-s-hub-n2.luna.kuleuven.be [10.112.9.12]) by smtps01.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622A631E702 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:36:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from ICTS-S-EXC2-CA.luna.kuleuven.be ([10.112.11.13]) by ICTS-S-HUB-N2.luna.kuleuven.be ([10.112.9.12]) with mapi; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:36:47 +0100 X-Kuleuven: This mail passed the K.U.Leuven mailcluster From: Rik Strobbe To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:36:46 +0100 Thread-Topic: Re: Opera v qrs evaluation Thread-Index: AczgR5WSDdQmLlHvSKeTdmVrxokIRAAHOfRO Message-ID: References: <006201cce044$06c16f80$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf>,<3A9A60CAE4EB4355A5B0A30CDA0F450A@JimPC> In-Reply-To: <3A9A60CAE4EB4355A5B0A30CDA0F450A@JimPC> Accept-Language: nl-NL, nl-BE Content-Language: nl-BE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: nl-NL, nl-BE MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Subject: LF: RE: Re: Opera v qrs evaluation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:419595168:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40924f286d4c7992 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none Dear all, I did an atempt to compare Opera with WSPR, QRSS3 and DFCW10. I did it by generating audiofiles that contain a Opera2, WSPR, QRSS3 and DF= CW signal of identical amplitude (but slightly different frequency and add = a known amount of (white) noise to get a known SNR. I started from -20dB and then down in 1dB steps, till -33dB. For each SNR l= evel I generated 5 audiofiles. All was done by a small application I wrote. Results: WSPR:=20 - 100% (5 out of 5) decodes as low as -29dB SNR.=20 - 1 out 5 decode at -30dB SNR - no decodes at lower SNR - SNR given by WSPR was always within a +/- 1dB range of the calculated SNR Opera2: - 100% (5 out of 5) decodes as low as -22dB SNR - 4 out of 5 decodes at -23dB SNR - no decodes at lower SNR - SNR values given by Opera2 differ about 4dB with the calcualted SNR (Oper= a2 gives -24dB at calculated 20dB ...) QRSS3 / DFCW10: Here comes the tricky part. While with the WSPR and Opera software it is si= mple to see wether there is a decode or not, this is not the case with QRSS= and DFCW.=20 For this modes the operator's experience, both for setting the right parame= ters in the QRSS software as for reading noisy signal, plays a role. For that reason random characters were generated. The software used was Spe= cLab with the default settings for QRSS3 resp. QRSS10. I could easily read QRSS3 as low as -24dB SNR and DFCW10 as low as -27dB SN= R. But is is likely that more experienced ops do 1 or 2 dB better. If there is some interest I am willing to put the screen captures on a webs= ite for those who want give a try in decoding the QRSS / DFCW signals. Conclusion: I was a bit surprised by the +/- 6dB difference between WSPR an= d Opera2. Both have about the same transission duration. But WSPR transmits more info= rmation (call + 4 digit loactor + power) compared to Opera (only call). So = that should be in the favour of Opera (more redundancy in the FEC).=20 But Opera seems to use some kind of Manchester coding, so 50% of the bits a= re sacrified to synchronisation. And finaly is WSPR a 100% duty cycle mode versus 50% for Opera, so the aver= age power in 3dB lower for Opera. So that might be an explanation for the 6= dB difference.=20 Based on the above Opera2 and QRSS3 seem to be competitive. DFCW10 outperfo= rms them and WSPR is even a bit better than DFCW10. But: these result are based on a relative low numer of measurement (5 at ea= ch SNR level) and with artificial white noise. So it certainly is not writt= en in stone. 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ________________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= ] namens James Moritz [james.moritz@btopenworld.com] Verzonden: dinsdag 31 januari 2012 19:35 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: LF: Re: Opera v qrs evaluation Dear Eddie, LF Group, In an attempt to actually make a comparison, I have set my RX to the 500kHz WSPR frequency, with Spec Lab going also. Since it has been running, G3ZJO'= s QRSS3 has been about 10 - 15dB SNR in 0.3Hz FFT resolution, so say about 6d= B above the level needed for "good copy". Opera has so far reported SNR between -23 and -27dB - I don't know how this relates to the detection threshold for the Op4 mode. I'll leave it going for a while... Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU=