Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dk05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id BF6DB3800008E; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:01:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Rrpu2-0008Ks-2E for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:00:06 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Rrpu1-0008Kj-Gv for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:00:05 +0000 Received: from imr-da02.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.144]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrpty-0003zt-Lx for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:00:05 +0000 Received: from mtaomg-db06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db06.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.204]) by imr-da02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0UBxtLR013085 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:59:55 -0500 Received: from core-msc004c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-msc004.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.233.205]) by mtaomg-db06.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 9555FE00008E for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:59:55 -0500 (EST) References: <007f01ccdeb1$cda0b1e0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <6269AFC61EFB4E17A5884AF57C3DD948@AGB> <4F25AB0C.30205@talktalk.net> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <4F25AB0C.30205@talktalk.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Markus Vester X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 35412-STANDARD Received: from 194.138.39.59 by webmail-stg-m03.sysops.aol.com (64.12.222.102) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:59:55 -0500 Message-Id: <8CEAD5DD0F8C97A-1E08-163CB@webmail-stg-m03.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [194.138.39.59] Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:59:55 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1327924795; bh=RdceJoxLUOW3b9A1X5d7x3tNQKvu2ZZuy6a7uM3tQAc=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=DC4HatliWbA9KUTKZO1qr8I6u4y/fXIVCpYlW/XQGrTiP8WxEAibh9TFMzIEUqh3X Te17nXn+izO7Mbumcxar4pUcz5M41KIN7tj542ErMhIxymrAP1ZqMInsvg0Zb1w2M2 jp1aQ7C6eIOz+TULxqFrZioyQ27FH6KXdkEdS0sI= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:353570496:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,FORGED_AOL_TAGS=0.281,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: 500 opera V Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CEAD5DD0FB2ADE_1E08_568BF_webmail-stg-m03.sysops.aol.com" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_AOL_TAGS,HTML_20_30, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:385613664:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d231.2 ; domain : mx.aol.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1db4094f2686840239 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CEAD5DD0FB2ADE_1E08_568BF_webmail-stg-m03.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Eddie, my guess is that in the "Opera vs QRSS" challenge, Mal's odds wouldn't be b= ad at all: Graham stated that Opera-8 should decode above SNR -32 dB in 2.5 kHz (avera= ge). Referenced to 1 Hz, this is +2 dBHz average, or about + 5 dBHz for the= CW carrier. QRSS-10 could transmit a callsign approximately in the same amout of time. = It is received eg. in Argo at 0.084 Hz FFT bandwidth, equivalent to 0.13 Hz= or -9 dBHz noise bandwidth. Thus the marginal Opera signal would be a very= comfortable 14 dB SNR in QRSS.=20 We typically give "O" reports on QRSS signals above 10 dB SNR. This would m= ean that QRSS could be twice as fast as Opera... Some may prefer the digital decoder from the visual one because "100% all-o= r-nothing". In my opinion this is not a benefit, as there is no way to dete= ct a signal below the threshold, and judge how much was missing or what typ= e of QRM was present. Of course, with a digital mode yu don't have to bothe= r investigating spectrograms - well, borrowing a term once coined by G3KEV,= then that's the ultimate "lazy man's CW" ;-) Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Graham An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Fr, 6 Jan 2012 9:50 pm Betreff: Re: LF: Opera questions ... OP31 expected round -38 dB s/n (ave) OP8 ~ -32 dB =20 =20 G..=20 -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: qrss An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: So, 29 Jan 2012 9:25 pm Betreff: Re: LF: 500 opera V So Mal Can you see or hear my 12WPM Morse ident between my OPERA signals? I doubt = it. I could put QRS3 between, that would be a good test. Say a cryptic mess= age for decipher, one transmission and that is it, if Opera decodes and the= QRS remains unread OPERA wins. Eddie On 29/01/2012 19:53, Graham wrote:=20 R Mal Those signals where about 10 db over the limit , so will show , OP16= , is about 6 dB lower again. but a decode is a decode.. good start. = =20 14:44 500 G3ZJO de G3KEV Op4 142 miles -22 dB in SCARBOROUGH 136 is being most used at the moment RA9CUA is monitoring =20 Show all seen by RA9CUA Last report: RN3AGC G..=20 From: mal hamilton=20 Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:14 PM To: rsgb=20 Subject: LF: 500 opera V MF On 500 Khz so far signals decoded in Opera mode have been visible on the wa= terfall therefore had the mode been QRSS the result would have probably bee= n better and quicker in QRS 3 - 10 The mode is however interesting and needs little operator intervention. de mal/g3kev =20 ----------MB_8CEAD5DD0FB2ADE_1E08_568BF_webmail-stg-m03.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Eddie,
 
my guess is that in the "Opera vs QRSS" challenge, Mal's odds wou= ldn't be bad at all:
 
Graham stated that Opera-8 should decode above SNR -32 = dB in 2.5 kHz (average). Referenced to 1 Hz, this is +2 dBHz = ;average, or about + 5 dBHz for the CW carrier.
 
QRSS-10 could transmit a callsign approximately in the same = amout of time. It is received eg. in Argo at 0.084 Hz FFT bandwidth, e= quivalent to 0.13 Hz or -9 dBHz noise bandwidth. Thus the ma= rginal Opera signal would be a very comfortable 14 dB SNR in QRSS. 
 
We typically give "O" reports on QRSS signals above 10 dB SNR. Th= is would mean that QRSS could be twice as fast as Opera...
 
Some may prefer the digital decoder from the visual one because "= 100% all-or-nothing". In my opinion this is not a benefit, as there is no w= ay to detect a signal below the threshold, and judge how much was= missing or what type of QRM was present. Of course, with a digital mo= de yu don't have to bother investigating spectrograms - well, bor= rowing a term once coined by G3KEV, then that's the ultimate "lazy man= 's CW" ;-)
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Fr, 6 Jan 2012 9:50 pm
Betreff: Re: LF: Opera questions
...
OP31 expected  round  -38 dB  s/n  (ave) &nbs= p;   OP8   ~  -32 dB 
 
G..


= -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: qrss <qrss@talktalk.net>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: So, 29 Jan 2012 9:25 pm
Betreff: Re: LF: 500 opera V

So Mal

Can you see or hear my 12WPM Morse ident between my OPERA signals? I doubt = it. I could put QRS3 between, that would be a good test. Say a cryptic mess= age for decipher, one transmission and that is it, if Opera decodes and the= QRS remains unread OPERA wins.

Eddie

On 29/01/2012 19:53, Graham wrote:=20
R Mal
Those  signals where  about  10 db over = the  limit ,  so  will  show , OP16 ,  is about 6&= nbsp; dB lower  again. but  a decode  is a decode.. good&nbs= p; start.  
14:44 500 G3ZJO de G3KEV Op4 142 miles -22 dB in SCARBOROUGH
136  is  being  most  used  at= the  moment   RA9CUA  is  monitoring 
G..

Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:14 PM
To: rsgb
Subject: LF: 500 opera V

MF
On 500 Khz so far signals decoded in Opera mode hav= e been visible on the waterfall therefore had the mode been QRSS the result= would have probably been better and quicker in QRS 3 - 10
The mode is however interesting and needs little op= erator intervention.
de mal/g3kev
 

----------MB_8CEAD5DD0FB2ADE_1E08_568BF_webmail-stg-m03.sysops.aol.com--