Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mc01.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 2F8BA3800008E; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:49:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1RrraS-00006h-SR for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:48:00 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1RrraS-00006Y-AQ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:48:00 +0000 Received: from out1.ip07ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.243]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1RrraQ-0004fi-KN for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:48:00 +0000 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AskGAGyfJk9Ok8LZ/2dsb2JhbABDgk2CPpRIA4Q1kEuBBoFtBQEBBQgBAQMWCikCDx0BAQMFAgEDEQQBAQohAgIUAQQaBhYIBhMKAQICAQGHbqcBkTqIZQQIAQocIgGDPVEHAgQDJwGCGIEWBIJbimiaKA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,592,1320624000"; d="scan'208,217";a="22625498" Received: from host-78-147-194-217.as13285.net (HELO xphd97xgq27nyf) ([78.147.194.217]) by out1.ip07ir2.opaltelecom.net with SMTP; 30 Jan 2012 13:47:43 +0000 Message-ID: <001901ccdf55$bd4b88c0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> From: "mal hamilton" To: References: <007f01ccdeb1$cda0b1e0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <6269AFC61EFB4E17A5884AF57C3DD948@AGB> <4F25AB0C.30205@talktalk.net> <8CEAD5DD0F8C97A-1E08-163CB@webmail-stg-m03.sysops.aol.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:47:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: 500 opera V Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01CCDF55.BD08B360" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:411066368:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60494f269fdd4dc9 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CCDF55.BD08B360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eddie Om=20 There is your answer from a MAN that knows g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Markus Vester=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 11:59 AM Subject: Re: LF: 500 opera V Eddie, my guess is that in the "Opera vs QRSS" challenge, Mal's odds wouldn't = be bad at all: Graham stated that Opera-8 should decode above SNR -32 dB in 2.5 kHz = (average). Referenced to 1 Hz, this is +2 dBHz average, or about + 5 = dBHz for the CW carrier. QRSS-10 could transmit a callsign approximately in the same amout of = time. It is received eg. in Argo at 0.084 Hz FFT bandwidth, equivalent = to 0.13 Hz or -9 dBHz noise bandwidth. Thus the marginal Opera signal = would be a very comfortable 14 dB SNR in QRSS.=20 We typically give "O" reports on QRSS signals above 10 dB SNR. This = would mean that QRSS could be twice as fast as Opera... Some may prefer the digital decoder from the visual one because "100% = all-or-nothing". In my opinion this is not a benefit, as there is no way = to detect a signal below the threshold, and judge how much was missing = or what type of QRM was present. Of course, with a digital mode yu don't = have to bother investigating spectrograms - well, borrowing a term once = coined by G3KEV, then that's the ultimate "lazy man's CW" ;-) Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Graham An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Fr, 6 Jan 2012 9:50 pm Betreff: Re: LF: Opera questions ... OP31 expected round -38 dB s/n (ave) OP8 ~ -32 dB =20 G..=20 -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: qrss An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: So, 29 Jan 2012 9:25 pm Betreff: Re: LF: 500 opera V So Mal Can you see or hear my 12WPM Morse ident between my OPERA signals? I = doubt it. I could put QRS3 between, that would be a good test. Say a = cryptic message for decipher, one transmission and that is it, if Opera = decodes and the QRS remains unread OPERA wins. Eddie On 29/01/2012 19:53, Graham wrote:=20 R Mal Those signals where about 10 db over the limit , so will show = , OP16 , is about 6 dB lower again. but a decode is a decode.. good = start. =20 14:44 500 G3ZJO de G3KEV Op4 142 miles -22 dB in SCARBOROUGH 136 is being most used at the moment RA9CUA is monitoring = Show all seen by RA9CUA Last report: RN3AGC G..=20 From: mal hamilton=20 Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:14 PM To: rsgb=20 Subject: LF: 500 opera V MF On 500 Khz so far signals decoded in Opera mode have been visible on = the waterfall therefore had the mode been QRSS the result would have = probably been better and quicker in QRS 3 - 10 The mode is however interesting and needs little operator = intervention. de mal/g3kev ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CCDF55.BD08B360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Eddie Om
There is your answer from a MAN that = knows
g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Markus=20 Vester
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 = 11:59=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: 500 opera = V

Eddie,
 
my guess is that in the "Opera vs QRSS" challenge, Mal's = odds=20 wouldn't be bad at all:
 
Graham stated that Opera-8 should decode above = SNR -32 dB=20 in 2.5 kHz (average). Referenced to 1 Hz, this is +2=20 dBHz average, or about + 5 dBHz for the CW carrier.
 
QRSS-10 could transmit a callsign approximately in the = same=20 amout of time. It is received eg. in Argo at 0.084 Hz FFT=20 bandwidth, equivalent to 0.13 Hz or -9 dBHz noise=20 bandwidth. Thus the marginal Opera signal would be a very = comfortable 14=20 dB SNR in QRSS. 
 
We typically give "O" reports on QRSS signals above 10 dB = SNR. This=20 would mean that QRSS could be twice as fast as Opera...
 
Some may prefer the digital decoder from the visual one=20 because "100% all-or-nothing". In my opinion this is not a = benefit, as=20 there is no way to detect a signal below the threshold, and = judge=20 how much was missing or what type of QRM was present. Of course, = with a=20 digital mode yu don't have to bother investigating spectrograms - = well, borrowing a term once coined by G3KEV, then that's the = ultimate "lazy man's CW" ;-)
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: Graham=20 <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>
An: rsgb_lf_group=20 <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Fr, 6 Jan 2012 = 9:50=20 pm
Betreff: Re: LF: Opera questions
...
OP31 expected  round  -38 dB  s/n =20 (ave)     OP8   ~  -32 dB  =
 
G..


-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche=20 Mitteilung-----
Von: qrss <qrss@talktalk.net>
An: = rsgb_lf_group=20 <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: So, 29 Jan 2012 = 9:25=20 pm
Betreff: Re: LF: 500 opera V

So = Mal

Can=20 you see or hear my 12WPM Morse ident between my OPERA signals? I doubt = it. I=20 could put QRS3 between, that would be a good test. Say a cryptic = message for=20 decipher, one transmission and that is it, if Opera decodes and the = QRS=20 remains unread OPERA wins.

Eddie

On 29/01/2012 19:53, = Graham=20 wrote:=20
R Mal
Those  signals where  about  10 = db over=20 the  limit ,  so  will  show , OP16 ,  is = about=20 6  dB lower  again. but  a decode  is a decode.. = good  start.  
14:44 500 G3ZJO de G3KEV Op4 142 miles -22 dB in = SCARBOROUGH
136  is  being  most  = used  at=20 the  moment   RA9CUA  is  monitoring =20
Show=20 all seen by RA9CUA
Last report: RN3AGC
G..

From: mal hamilton
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:14 PM
To: rsgb
Subject: LF: 500 opera V

MF
On 500 Khz so far signals decoded in Opera = mode have=20 been visible on the waterfall therefore had the mode been QRSS the = result=20 would have probably been better and quicker in QRS 3 - = 10
The mode is however interesting and needs = little=20 operator intervention.
de mal/g3kev
 

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