Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-de04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id DFEF838000134; Thu, 3 Nov 2011 09:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1RLxnk-00019i-06 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:57:52 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1RLxni-00019Z-T3 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:57:50 +0000 Received: from nm8.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.182.249]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1RLxni-0001fI-PJ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:57:50 +0000 Received: from [217.146.183.183] by nm8.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2011 13:57:45 -0000 Received: from [217.146.183.179] by tm14.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2011 13:57:44 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1020.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2011 13:57:44 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 848954.95500.bm@omp1020.mail.ukl.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 19420 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Nov 2011 13:57:44 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1320328664; bh=Yt7gFjtQnydht0t4jwn3V6rNa1JXKyc9DJM9BY4uMoM=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=BGhadDtEl9oS+9NJdd+MPDoNwXQw40Ab+9/wbHOx+n2wkRv/ze00nq/qCRn1NQEPH0LwvwlQbf1yXxB4PR0XUqG858pNdS2ava4UgptOfVXxBpxl5e1nffVjI85LkPiMvnCmYTrvS+Q3E9zsM0CdQDU5IX3ralEOcaTSzXN3zlw= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=wtD5CSFDAEPJu3Q5vPHyakcvMwrRLEMBUtedeUql43qFRfN26sV7ndpkHUsorznsc3zJ6YIJ+h1Vg5JcWxN30YhMVp+Nby5TgZbV0kV9HfTBZO8WVZgE+YUzz2T8lUPb2BtfKM1tpY3bQnyPxd7nQlDGv5wsKTBNhiniifjnxLE=; X-YMail-OSG: T4PPj4QVM1kiLfKF2tTn7MM8hRs2GVoensUokc7OYDQ7Kt_ nqxKVWkTSveRawWEcXWUEHIoIEGY2CAJdAA1WBiJrYOD9YFkfCM3XSkw9c9u vNXby3HoRmKSzVpKtCP39jzvfazeSE0Fw3qaXaOINot1cSuXhYH.sQoUSZwi h9HkiqN6ncA8ksRQTPPXoXLXg2JV2WXGB1xSGCFJp7dF1byNxSEeWhWcd9QC DopgHbwugqJVPHip.XvD7Q_k2zytD4thc1wkMH0be9OpHcUIjowVAdNQy_Rb rtJghtbkIhD0OV1r3HImNSWbXqQzA3FwhU7qgULEYPdmPCbc1iqhaeXh.YOY xfVcPQxpUPocpNPZCR0voxtqDs8kP7WJ0ot2aTlYSzLKjtWU0y7Gq8E848hi 9E.eWkw-- Received: from [86.139.201.20] by web28103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:57:44 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.114.317681 References: ,,, <052BA55206094BF087148BC8E0C97027@JimPC> <1320275789.81298.YahooMailNeo@web28104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <002301cc99c6$aed71f90$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <1320319666.38048.YahooMailNeo@web28103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320328664.11733.YahooMailNeo@web28103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:57:44 +0000 (GMT) From: M0FMT To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" In-Reply-To: <1320319666.38048.YahooMailNeo@web28103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: Re: LF: Re: 8kHz of spectrum ERRATA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="474782128-233352946-1320328664=:11733" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.6 required=5.0 tests=AMATEUR_PORN,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:476583840:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m022.1 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40cc4eb29e472312 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none --474782128-233352946-1320328664=:11733 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =A0Sorry divide my 10=0A=A0=0A".......for a QSOs in the worst case about 85= 0kcs away or if its CW I would.............." =0A=A0=0AShould read.........= .............>>>=0A=A0=0A".......for a QSOs in the worst case about 85kcs a= way or if its CW I would.............." =0A=0A=0A73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX= 47VN=0A=0AFrom: M0FMT =0ATo: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.o= rg" =0ASent: Thursday, 3 November 2011, 11:27= =0ASubject: Re: LF: Re: 8kHz of spectrum=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AHi Mal its not th= e same. We are talking about a maximum of 3kcs separation but more likely t= o be only one to half a kcs. The IF selectivity can sort that OK but what i= t can't do is stop front end being flattened by the proximity of a station = running hi power. On every other band HF of 600m we=A0can achieve relativel= y wide separation. In other words if a station is desensing my RX on 160 I = can go and move and look for a QSOs in the worst case about 85kcs away=A0or= if its CW I would just have to give up like 600m. But even=A0then on 160 i= ts not too bad largely because of antenna selectivity which you don't get o= n 600m owing to the narrowness of the band. Its not so much the power alone= its proximity and power and the=A0narrowness of the frequency separation.= =0AMy guess is you don't have any competition on 600m because I have never = heard a station=A0on the band within your QRA square so maybe you don't und= erstand the phenomenon.=0A=0AAnyway I am working on it over a period of tim= e but at the moment 600m is a dead-loss around here because I flatten ADSL = in a big=A0way=A0even with mico power. The effect is not temporary because = the exchange DSLAM sees 500kcs as noise and shuts the data rate down to a l= evel that seems to require human intervention at the exchange to reinstate = the miserly=A01.2mbs that BT laughingly call Broadband.=0A=0AAny way thanks= for the prompt I'll try some more ..... just thought, if you look at the P= SK31 screen dumps I attached in another mailing yesterday you will see the = effect just 50Watts RF out probably between 1/4 to 1/2 W radiated does to m= y RX sensitivity from 6 miles away over fairly flat terrain.=0AI think it w= ould mess your RX up as well.=0A=0A=A0=0A73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX47VN=0A= =0AFrom: mal hamilton =0ATo: rsgb_lf_group@blackshee= p.org=0ASent: Thursday, 3 November 2011, 1:19=0ASubject: Re: LF: Re: 8kHz o= f spectrum=0A=0A=0APete=0AWe all manage on 160 metres where the same criter= ia applies. You just need selectivity and expertise.=0ASome operators get n= ervous when Watts are mentioned and prefer uWatts.=0AYou must be having a h= ard time with the Mega Watt commercial stations adjacent to the amateur ban= ds, how do you cope ?=0Amal/g3kev=0A=0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>Fro= m: M0FMT =0A>To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A>Sent: Wednesday, November= 02, 2011 11:16 PM=0A>Subject: Re: LF: Re: 8kHz of spectrum=0A>=0A>=0A>Hi a= ll=0A>=0A>In my humble opinion high power only goes with wide band width be= cause ground wave on these medium frequencies travels. So I welcome the low= er power suggestion (assuming anybody sticks to it) with the narrow band wi= dth proposal. And don't jump on me about front end selectivity=A0 because I= think it is insurmountable even by "Real" Amateurs.=0A>=0A>73 es GL Pete M= 0FMT IO91UX47VN=0A>=0A>From: James Moritz =0A= >To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=0A>Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011, 22:5= 8=0A>Subject: LF: Re: 8kHz of spectrum=0A>=0A>Dear LF Group,=0A>=0A>Well, I= think this is a positive development - the only minor disappointment is th= e reduction in maximum ERP to about 3W.=0A>=0A>As for the choice of frequen= cy, the maritime people have a plan for a sort of=A0 "super Navtex" using O= FDM modulation with a bandwidth of 10kHz centred on 500kHz. It may be that = this is just a pipe dream, and/or a way to justify continued primary user s= tatus at 500kHz. But if it ever does come into existence, it will certainly= be using vastly higher powers than amateur stations, and the noise sideban= ds will extend well beyond the actual signal bandwidth due to "spectral re-= growth" in the TX PA. So it will be good to have a significant difference i= n frequency between ourselves and the noisy things. I expect all those REAL= amateurs will manage to reduce their TX frequency by 5 percent somehow ;-)= =0A>=0A>Cheers, Jim Moritz=0A>73 de M0BMU --474782128-233352946-1320328664=:11733 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Sorry divide my 10
 
".......for a QSOs i= n the worst case about 850kcs away or if its CW I would.............."
 
Should read.........= .............>>>
 
".......for a QSOs i= n the worst case about 85kcs away or if it= s CW I would.............."

73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX47VN
From:= M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" <rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org>
Sent: T= hursday, 3 November 2011, 11:27
Sub= ject: Re: LF: Re: 8kHz of spectrum


 
Hi Mal its not the same. We are talking about a = maximum of 3kcs separation but more likely to be only one to half a kcs. Th= e IF selectivity can sort that OK but what it can't do is stop front end be= ing flattened by the proximity of a station running hi power. On every othe= r band HF of 600m we can achieve relatively wide separation. In other = words if a station is desensing my RX on 160 I can go and move and look for= a QSOs in the worst case about 85kcs away or if its CW I would= just have to give up like 600m. But even then on 160 its not too bad = largely because of antenna selectivity which you don't get on 600m owing to= the narrowness of the band. Its not so much the power alone its proximity = and power and the narrowness of the frequency separation.
My guess is you don't have any competition on 600m because I have neve= r heard a station on the band within your QRA square so maybe you don'= t understand the phenomenon<= /SPAN>.
 
Anyway I am working on it over a period of time but at the moment 600m= is a dead-loss aroun= d here because I flatten ADSL in a big way even with mico power. = The effect is not temporary because the exchange DSLAM sees 500kcs as noise= and shuts the data rate down to a level that seems to require human interv= ention at the exchange to reinstat= e the miserly 1.2mbs that BT laughingly call Broadband.<= /DIV>
 
Any way thanks for the prompt I'll try some more ..... just thought, i= f you look at the PSK31 screen dumps I attached in another mailing yesterda= y you will see the effect just 50Watts RF out probably between 1/4 to 1/2 W= radiated does to my RX sensitivity from 6 miles away over fairly flat terr= ain.
I think it would mess your RX up as well.

 
73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX47VN
From: mal hamilton <g3k= evmal@talktalk.net>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sen= t: Thursday, 3 November 2011, 1:19
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 8kHz of spectrum

Pete
We all manage on 160 metres where the same criteria= applies. You just need selectivity and expertise.
Some operators get nervous when Watts are mentioned= and prefer uWatts.
You must be having a hard time with the Mega Watt c= ommercial stations adjacent to the amateur bands, how do you cope ?<= /DIV>
mal/g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
From: M0FMT
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 1= 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 8kHz of spectru= m

Hi all

In my humble opinion high power only goes with wide band= width because ground wave on these medium frequencies travels. So I welcom= e the lower power suggestion (assuming anybody sticks to it) with the narro= w band width proposal. And don't jump on me about front end selectivity&nbs= p; because I think it is insurmountable even by "Real" Amateurs.

73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX47VN
From: James Moritz <james.moritz@btopenworld.com>
To: rsgb_lf_gr= oup@blacksheep.org
Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011, 22:58
Subject: L= F: Re: 8kHz of spectrum

Dear LF Group,

Well, I think this is = a positive development - the only minor disappointment is the reduction in = maximum ERP to about 3W.

As for the choice of frequency, the maritim= e people have a plan for a sort of  "super Navtex" using OFDM modulati= on with a bandwidth of 10kHz centred on 500kHz. It may be that this is just a pipe dream, and/or a way to justify continued primary user status a= t 500kHz. But if it ever does come into existence, it will certainly be usi= ng vastly higher powers than amateur stations, and the noise sidebands will= extend well beyond the actual signal bandwidth due to "spectral re-growth"= in the TX PA. So it will be good to have a significant difference in frequ= ency between ourselves and the noisy things. I expect all those REAL amateu= rs will manage to reduce their TX frequency by 5 percent somehow ;-)
Cheers, Jim Moritz
73 de M0BMU



--474782128-233352946-1320328664=:11733--